[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Is it possible for Christians to be perfectly sinless in this life?

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Paul's thorn in the flesh was sin? That's a new one to me. I didn't know Satan could buffet us with our sin. interesting.

To our OP I would ask, why do you quote single texts that misrepresent the mind of the writer? If you do that you will run into trouble later on.

You ask those who believe one can live sinless in this life by the grace of God through Jesus Christ to explain themselves then judgmentally accuse them of "false doctrine", why would they answer you? Obviously you are not open to discussion.

I believe that it is possible to attain sinlessness in this life or else we are not freed from the power of sin. Why is that not supported by Scripture? Paul says we are dead to sin Romans 6:2 & 11. John says those born of God do not sin 1 John 3:9.

Do I say I have never sinned? Absolutely not. All have sinned. In the eternal perspective I cannot say I have no sin because it once presided in me but by faith in Christ I expunge sin through the power of his death and resurrection.

If the blood of Jesus cleanses me from sin, why must I still be in the power of it?

1 John 1:8 is written to the one who says, "I'm not a sinner, I don't need Christ."

Such a person is deceived for there is no other way to be saved.

1 John 2:1 "My little children I write these things to you so that you sin not."

Think about that. John was wasting his time if we can never stop sinning.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to read the whole of John's letter and see how he builds a life from sin to victorious salvation.

The doctrine of sinlessness is not false doctrine but is true to the Apostolic teaching, howbeit it should not be used for the boasting of the flesh.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Paul's thorn in the flesh was sin? That's a new one to me. I didn't know Satan could buffet us with our sin. interesting.

You ought to get out more often.

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4712.htm

Quote
e. What exactly was Paul's thorn in the flesh? We simply don't have enough information to say precisely, but that hasn't prevented many commentators and teachers from giving their opinion.

i. Some see it mainly as spiritual harassment. Others think it was persecution. Many suggest that it was a physical or mental ailment. Some say this was Paul's struggle with lustful and sinful thoughts.

ii. Among Christians, Tertullian gives the earliest recorded guess at the exact nature of Paul's problem. He thought the thorn in the flesh was an earache or a headache.

iii. In more modern times, historian Sir William Ramsay offered the suggestion that Paul's infirmity was a type of malaria common to the area where he served as a missionary. Sufferers of this type of malaria experience attacks when under stress, and they "feel a contempt and loathing for self, and believe that others feel equal contempt and loathing." This malarial fever also produces severe headaches, described by sufferers as being "like a red-hot bar thrust through the forehead."

iv. Each of these suggestions is possible, but God had a definite purpose in not revealing the exact nature of Paul's thorn. If we knew exactly what Paul's thorn was, then everybody who was afflicted - but not in exactly the same way - might doubt that Paul's experience was relevant for them. God wanted everyone with any kind of thorn in the flesh to be able to put themselves in Paul's shoes. "I generally find that each expositor has selected that particular thorn which had pierced his own bosom." (Spurgeon)

It's strange that sin is the central problem for all the saints, but they express no desire for relief. Abraham wants an heir, Isaac a wife and Jacob protection from Esau. God always emphasizes how they will be blessings to the world. God and the saints seem to talk past each other!

However, the first covenant that God makes with Israel is called Law. In agreements, contracts, covenants, treaties, the beneficiaries receive products or services in return for meeting the requirements of their side of the agreement. The benefit is normally the name of the agreement: thus we have peace treaties, rent agreements, etc. In the case of Sinai, the benefit is the protection of the law. The law is a guardian until Christ was sent. Those who believe God and keep the law, perfectly or imperfectly, are reckoned to be righteous. They don't question God, like Adam when he began to waver, began to sympathize with Satan, going along with his temptation of wondering, "Did God really say...?" Yup that gem is hidden there, the benefit of Sinai was protection.

The benefit of the New Covenant was grace. Believing God resulted in not the protection of the law, because the law was a dead husband, but in grace, being in God's good books. Remember, being under law resulted in death, inability to be in God's presence, because of the weakness of the flesh, resulting in sinfulness. Grace was being made alive, being able to be in Christ, because of being able to put to death the weaknesses of the flesh, resulting in sinlessness. There are several ways to approach the problem. I like to see grace as being able to be blessings to the world, by being the unblemished sacrifice., to bear sin, atone for others. Possible by grace. Through being in Christ.

Romans 8:13But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.

 

[James Is Back]

I will remind everyone from the GT SoP:

Do not teach or promote sinless perfectionism.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Alright. I apologise for transgressing the rules, however I believe that the ability to be sinless is Scriptural and therefore feel I must disassociate myself from CF as I must stand in defense of the gospel as declared in the Scriptures. If someone challenges the truth and I am not allowed to defend it then this is not the place for me.

God bless you in your efforts to reach the lost.

 

[Job8]

Why did Jesus have to be sinless?

First of all it is totally inappropriate and inaccurate to call Christ a "Christian".

As to why Jesus had to be sinless, the simply answer is He could not have paid for our sins if He was not perfectly sinless. The Lamb of God came to earth to "take away the sin of the world". Therefore it required one who was absolutely holy, righteous, and perfect to take upon Himself all the sins of the world and pay the just penalty for every sin.

Christians cannot attain absolute sinless perfection in this life because THE FLESH (the sinful human nature) is not eradicated at the New Birth. At the same time, because the Christian receives the Holy Spirit to empower him/her to overcome the flesh, it is possible to mortify (put to death) the flesh and produce the fruit of the Spirit and to "walk in the Spirit".

 

[Johnlove1]

I am a Child of God’s, and a Child of God can’t sin. That is scripture.


If you don’t agree then argue with Apostle John.


My witness is the Jesus has kept me sin free for many years.


A Christian is a Child of God’s, and a Child of God does not sin.


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s”

(1 John 3:8) “Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since the devil has been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil.

John also says if one sins he or she has never seen God, nor knows God.

Jesus told us if one keeps his commandments he would show himself to him or her. Keeping God’s commandments means not sinning.

(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”

Notice to love Jesus one has to keep God's commandments. Jesus told us not to sin.

(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


A Christian who is in Jesus will walk/live as Jesus lived.


(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

 

[rnmomof7]

. . . Though one of the only reasons it's so prominent is because of Charles Finney, who, need I remind you, was Presbyterian.

Regardless, it's all theology of glory.

Actually Wesley had what he called his "2nd blessing" which he felt made him able to live a sinless life... Finley just took off with it ...

 

[Wordkeeper]

First of all it is totally inappropriate and inaccurate to call Christ a "Christian".

As to why Jesus had to be sinless, the simply answer is He could not have paid for our sins if He was not perfectly sinless. The Lamb of God came to earth to "take away the sin of the world". Therefore it required one who was absolutely holy, righteous, and perfect to take upon Himself all the sins of the world and pay the just penalty for every sin.

Christians cannot attain absolute sinless perfection in this life because THE FLESH (the sinful human nature) is not eradicated at the New Birth. At the same time, because the Christian receives the Holy Spirit to empower him/her to overcome the flesh, it is possible to mortify (put to death) the flesh and produce the fruit of the Spirit and to "walk in the Spirit".

Excellent. We are asked to be like Paul just as he tried to be like Christ:


1 Corinthians 11:1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Christ was a sin offering, so we should be a sin offering as well.

Romans 12:1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

Do we have to be sinless like Christ so that we can be an unblemished sacrifice, acceptable in the sight of God?

 

[GillDouglas]

Alright. I apologise for transgressing the rules, however I believe that the ability to be sinless is Scriptural and therefore feel I must disassociate myself from CF as I must stand in defense of the gospel as declared in the Scriptures. If someone challenges the truth and I am not allowed to defend it then this is not the place for me.

God bless you in your efforts to reach the lost.

While I can understand your need to defend what you believe, I'm having a hard time understanding how one can become totally without sin in this life? Having come to know Christ we recognize our sin, having accepted Christ as our Savior we are free from living in sin, but doing so does not mean our nature is immediately changed. Sanctification is a lifelong, daily process to becoming holy. Becoming holy, and without sin is not something we can achieve in this life. To anyone who claims they can be, or are is bizarre in my opinion.

Where is the need for God in this life or the need for Jesus to enter Heaven if one were to become 'holy'?

 

[Johnlove1]

While I can understand your need to defend what you believe, I'm having a hard time understanding how one can become totally without sin in this life? Having come to know Christ we recognize our sin, having accepted Christ as our Savior we are free from living in sin, but doing so does not mean our nature is immediately changed. Sanctification is a lifelong, daily process to becoming holy. Becoming holy, and without sin is not something we can achieve in this life. To anyone who claims they can be, or are is bizarre in my opinion.

Where is the need for God in this life or the need for Jesus to enter Heaven if one were to become 'holy'?

Until God gives you the true understanding it will not happen.


(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”


(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God.---------“

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

While I can understand your need to defend what you believe, I'm having a hard time understanding how one can become totally without sin in this life? Having come to know Christ we recognize our sin, having accepted Christ as our Savior we are free from living in sin, but doing so does not mean our nature is immediately changed. Sanctification is a lifelong, daily process to becoming holy. Becoming holy, and without sin is not something we can achieve in this life. To anyone who claims they can be, or are is bizarre in my opinion.

Where is the need for God in this life or the need for Jesus to enter Heaven if one were to become 'holy'?

It is not my place to reply here since there is a restriction placed on the forum.

However I think it would be dishonest not to give you a brief reply. You cannot achieve it without Christ but only through Christ. Your total dependence is upon God and our Lord Jesus Christ. I may be bizarre to you but my trust and dependence is totally on Christ, and I believe he is able to do it while I am not. It is Christ's victory I will celebrate in sinlessness, not my own effort.

I really don't know why we strive over this. Jesus Christ is the answer, look to him.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Paul understood Christ's command of the need for believers to love their fellow men by laying down their lives, for the purpose of sharing in Christ's work, of saving men from their sins.

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

Romans 12:1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

John 15:13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Sanctification is not to earn brownie points, but to present an unblemished sacrifice, an offering to take away sin.

Since Paul had sin in His life, he prayed to God to take away those sins:

2 Corinthians 12:8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

However, God told him he did not need to be without sin to be a blessing to the world. His grace was sufficient.


2 Corinthians 12:9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Grace is the benefit of the new covenant. Those who believed God's word, heard with faith, loyalty, agreement, received the Holy Spirit, obeyed God in cleansing themselves of the deeds of the body by the Spirit, abided in Christ, could be in God's presence, be in union with Him, could share in Christ's work, be a blessing to the world. Although they were not perfectly sinless, they were sanctified by abiding in Christ. This is what God meant that His grace was sufficient.

Only the pure in heart can see God, but Moses was allowed to see God even though he was not perfectly sinless, because God hid him in the cleft of the Rock. Hiding us in the cleft of the Rock is the benefit of the new covenant, grace, and is different from the benefit of the old covenant, being protected by law, the guardianship of law. Whilst the law protected from God's wrath in this life and the next, grace hid us in Christ so that we could be in God's presence and because we are in God's presence, we can be blessings to the world, in this life and the next, just as Adam could bless the world, harness, subdue the world, make it productive, able to bear good fruit, when he was in God's presence.

Every covenant or agreement has a requirement from one party and a provision of goods or services from the other party. One pays a rent and the other provides a house for habitation.

The requirement of the old covenant was to believe God's command to observe His law, agree it was good, which provided the benefit of the protection of the law, from wrath in this life and hell in the next, by being found righteous, justified, although it was a curse in the sense that our body of death could not ensure perfect obedience, which was required to become blessings to the world.

Like 16:16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

Similarly, the requirement of the new covenant was to believe God's command to hear with faith, hear the Gospel and believe the Gospel, hear and believe that salvation, rest in the kingdom of God, peace with God without futile human effort, heavenly treasure, was available by confessing Jesus was Lord, and following Him, not Caesar or Egypt or the rest of the world. The benefit of the new covenant was God's grace, protection, by being in Christ through belief in the Gospel, leading to acceptance by God, which is eternal life, basically returning to the life Adam had when he was in the Garden.


Summary

There is no need to be perfect, because God's grace, hiding us in the cleft of the Rock, is sufficient.

 

[Johnlove1]

Paul understood Christ's command of the need for believers to love their fellow men by laying down their lives, for the purpose of sharing in Christ's work, of saving men from their sins.

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

Romans 12:1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

John 15:13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Sanctification is not to earn brownie points, but to present an unblemished sacrifice, an offering to take away sin.

Since Paul had sin in His life, he prayed to God to take away those sins:

2 Corinthians 12:8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

However, God told him he did not need to be without sin to be a blessing to the world. His grace was sufficient.


2 Corinthians 12:9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Grace is the benefit of the new covenant. Those who believed God's word, heard with faith, loyalty, agreement, received the Holy Spirit, obeyed God in cleansing themselves of the deeds of the body by the Spirit, abided in Christ, could be in God's presence, be in union with Him, could share in Christ's work, be a blessing to the world. Although they were not perfectly sinless, they were sanctified by abiding in Christ. This is what God meant that His grace was sufficient.

Only the pure in heart can see God, but Moses was allowed to see God even though he was not perfectly sinless, because God hid him in the cleft of the Rock. Hiding us in the cleft of the Rock is the benefit of the new covenant, grace, and is different from the benefit of the old covenant, being protected by law, the guardianship of law. Whilst the law protected from God's wrath in this life and the next, grace hid us in Christ so that we could be in God's presence and because we are in God's presence, we can be blessings to the world, in this life and the next, just as Adam could bless the world, harness, subdue the world, make it productive, able to bear good fruit, when he was in God's presence.

Every covenant or agreement has a requirement from one party and a provision of goods or services from the other party. One pays a rent and the other provides a house for habitation.

The requirement of the old covenant was to believe God's command to observe His law, agree it was good, which provided the benefit of the protection of the law, from wrath in this life and hell in the next, by being found righteous, justified, although it was a curse in the sense that our body of death could not ensure perfect obedience, which was required to become blessings to the world.

Like 16:16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

Similarly, the requirement of the new covenant was to believe God's command to hear with faith, hear the Gospel and believe the Gospel, hear and believe that salvation, rest in the kingdom of God, peace with God without futile human effort, heavenly treasure, was available by confessing Jesus was Lord, and following Him, not Caesar or Egypt or the rest of the world. The benefit of the new covenant was God's grace, protection, by being in Christ through belief in the Gospel, leading to acceptance by God, which is eternal life, basically returning to the life Adam had when he was in the Garden.


Summary

There is no need to be perfect, because God's grace, hiding us in the cleft of the Rock, is sufficient.

So your understanding of God/scripture negates what Jesus said. Also what John said?


(Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”


(Matthew 5:29-30) “If your right eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body thrown into hell. And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.”


We are told to be as our Heavenly Father is. One can only do that if he or she has the indwelling of God.


(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

There is no sin in God’s home. God’s home is the kingdom of God.


Apostle John tells us that if one sins he or she has never seen nor knows God.


If one believes John then according to your understanding of God people can’t see nor can they know God.


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”

 

[GillDouglas]

@Johnlove1 If you continue on with that chapter of John he goes on to say: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

No man living is exempt from the pressures and trials of sin until death. If you rely on one single act of your own to be the basis of your right standing with God rather than a continual need for Christ, you have fallen away from the God’s gracious way of declaring you righteous. Sin by nature inclines and empowers us to suppress the truth and to claim oneself sinless is arrogance and a lies.

 

[Johnlove1]

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Yes people quote that part of John’s letter, and how they can do so without feeling totally dishonest, I sure don’t understand.


Do you believe John was telling those Children of God who can’t sin, that they need not tell anyone? Do you believe that John was saying they were liars if they shared they no longer sinned?


I don’t believe people, when they quote 1 John 1:8-10 they expect any intelligent person to use that as to believe everyone still sins.


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God” New Jerusalem bible

 

[GillDouglas]

Yes people quote that part of John’s letter, and how they can do so without feeling totally dishonest, I sure don’t understand.


Do you believe John was telling those Children of God who can’t sin, that they need not tell anyone? Do you believe that John was saying they were liars if they shared they no longer sinned?


I don’t believe people, when they quote 1 John 1:8-10 they expect any intelligent person to use that as to believe everyone still sins.


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God” New Jerusalem bible

How can you say that you no longer sin and not feel dishonest?

 

[Winken]

Spiritually, one is sinless. That's the status of the born again Believer. Fleshly-wise, sin is pounding on the door. Behaviourly, we far too often open it. The entity that was pounding on the door glows, says "Hi!" Its name is temptation. We welcome it in, or we get out of the way as the Holy Spirit slams the door shut. If we don't get out of the way, repentance and confession is in order (1 John 1:9), not to be born again all over again, but to continue our walk with Him, as He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. The pathway is continuous, unbroken. The chalkboard, the monitor, the database, is pure and clean.

Yes, there is sinless perfection, entered into by His Amazing Grace, our sins not counted against us. Fleshly, we are doing untold damage to our life before Him, and especially to those who refer to us as "Christian." We'll hear our ministry reviewed at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Publicly.

 

[Johnlove1]

How can you say that you no longer sin and not feel dishonest?

Spiritually, one is sinless. That's the status of the born again Believer. Fleshly-wise, sin is pounding on the door. Behaviourly, we far too often open it. The entity that was pounding on the door glows, says "Hi!" Its name is temptation. We welcome it in, or we get out of the way as the Holy Spirit slams the door shut. If we don't get out of the way, repentance and confession is in order (1 John 1:9), not to be born again all over again, but to continue our walk with Him, as He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. The pathway is continuous, unbroken. The chalkboard, the monitor, the database, is pure and clean.

Yes, there is sinless perfection, entered into by His Amazing Grace, our sins not counted against us. Fleshly, we are doing untold damage to our life before Him, and especially to those who refer to us as "Christian." We'll hear our ministry reviewed at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Publicly.

One’s spirit never sinned. Jesus came to stop Satan’s work, and the work was to keep man sinning.


(1 John 3:8) “Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since thedevilhas been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil.

 

[Johnlove1]

How can you say that you no longer sin and not feel dishonest?

I can say that Jesus keeps me sin free. Jesus has made a home in me and there is no sin in God’s home.


(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


God’s home is the kingdom of God. Satan/sin is not allowed in the kingdom of God.

 

[James Is Back]

I will remind everyone from the GT SoP:

Do not teach or promote sinless perfectionism.

Once again I will remind everyone of the above rule.