Perhaps the most misunderstood passage of scripture

cygnusx1

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Romans 4:22–25

Therefore IT WAS also CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

What does credit mean ?
Who gets the credit .
What is credited .
Why is it credited .
When is it credited .

Depending upon how you answer these few questions will determine if you have understood salvation by Grace or not.
 

cygnusx1

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"Now what does this mean? Does it mean that faith itself is the kind of righteousness we perform and God counts that as good enough to be our righteousness - or our part of the righteousness - in justification? Does he mean that justification, let's say, costs five million dollars and I can come up with one million dollars (namely, faith), so God mercifully says he will count my one million as five million and cancel the rest? That would make my faith the righteousness imputed to me - or a significant part of it. So justification would be God's recognizing in me a righteousness that he put there and that he acknowledges and counts for what it really is. Is that what Paul means when he says, "faith is credited as righteousness"?

Or is justification something very different - not God's seeing any righteousness in me, but his crediting to me his own righteousness in Christ through faith? And if so, what does it mean to say that faith is credited as righteousness? "

John Piper
 
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cygnusx1

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Another misunderstood passage !
1 TIMOTHY 2

So far the arguement runs like this :

It is said that because we are commanded to pray for "all men" that God likewise wills the salvation of the same ... "all men"

yet if it can be shown from God's word that God forbids prayer to some men , then the meaning of "all men " in 1 Timothy 2 will need to be correctly understood as there are many ways of understanding "all men" without it meaning every single man , women and child.


For the set pas, (Nominative singular masculine of which pantas is the Accusative masculine plural) we find the following meaning elements listed in Louw & Nida (Semantic Domain GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON: United Bible Societies 1st edit. 1988)

pas a. all
b. any
c. total
d. whole
e. every kind of

Now a) above will unparcel to reveal: A1: All without exception, and ...
A2 All without distinction

And e) above will unparcel to reveal: E1 some of all sorts, and
E2 all manner of

Now which of these meanings did the Holy Ghost intend us to take as being the correct one to fit 1 Tim. 2:4? What do we do? Shall we say, Oh, I like this one, I’ll make it this one? Or, I feel led to A1, I’m certain that’s what God intended, I feel the witness within me? The Arminians insist on A1. On what grounds?
But now, what about the context? And what about the whole analogia fidei, by which we are to be guided when interpreting any difficult text such as this? Well first, the whole scope and tenor of Scripture shout that the Arminian interpretation A1 will put the text in contradiction to the Divine decrees. Knowing this, the Arminians do their utmost to extract as much anti-Calvinist mileage out of this text as they possibly can.

But manifestly, meaning elements e), and E1, and E2 will fit beautifully, and eliminate any contradiction with the rest of Scripture. That is, that God "will have all manner of men to be saved". In an age like the 1st Cent. AD, long before the rise of egalitarian democracies, when society was heavily stratified socially, and racial prejudices inflamed, it would have been vitally important to draw attention to the fact that God’s salvation was not only for one racial group, (the Jews, for instance, and much of the New Testament addresses precisely that question) or for one class of Society. Not only peasants, and slaves, but even middle class professionals and even rulers were to be addressed with the Gospel ("every creature", was emphasized, Mark 16:15). It was important to emphasize that "some of all sorts" of people were to be saved, by the Divine decree. And in historical practice, that is precisely how it has worked out, not all men without exception, but some of all sorts.

Now, it remains to examine the immediate context to the verse concerned. Notice how the phrase "all men" is coupled not only to the phrase "to be saved", but also to the clause: "to come unto the knowledge of the truth". In fact, in the Greek the coupling is closer than in the English. So it is God’s will that "all men" come "unto the knowledge of the truth" as well as that they be saved. Manifestly, they cannot be saved, without first coming unto the knowledge of the truth. (Rom. 10:14). And equally manifest is the fact that down through all the Old Testament period, and through the New Testament period, it has not been the will of God that "all men without exception" should come "unto the knowledge of the truth", but it has manifestly and indubitably been His will that "all manner of men", or "all kinds of men" should so come, and be saved. Some indeed, as Saint John says, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9 and cf. Rev. 11:9). Not all without exception.

Let the reader judge, what about all the billions of human beings absolutely excluded from the knowledge of the Gospel, and therefore salvation, for millennia? The millions of pre-Columbian America, the vast billions of China, and the East, and the manifold tribes of Africa ... all precluded from viewing the Gospel dispensation for most of the history of the world. Which interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:3-4 fits with reality.

But this is not all. Again looking at the immediate context of our verse we see in verse one preceding it the phrase "all men" used by the apostle again. The same Greek words are used as in verse 4 except for a change in the flexions for case endings. The apostle exhorts us to pray for "all men", an impossible task, if "all without exception is meant", for we are not allowed to pray for the dead, or for those who have committed the unpardonable sin. (I John 5:16). The Apostle makes it clear in verse two that by "all" in verse one he means "all kinds of" men, when he specifies that prayers should be made even for kings and all those in authority, that is, for those even of that exalted type of men who in most instances in those days were enemies that persecuted Christians, but from amongst whom God was pleased to save some.

We conclude therefore that the Holy Ghost wrote by the apostle that God willed "all kinds of men" to be saved. The interpretation is in beautiful harmony with the analogia fidei, the context and all the sound principles of exegesis, and the science of linguistics. A threefold cord is not quickly broken. (Eccl. 4:12).


Calvin vs. Hyper-Spurgeonism
 
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gmm4j

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Rom 4:18-25
8Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead-since he was about a hundred years old-and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Credit, count, consider, reckon - faith is not a righteous act, but God will count Christ's righteousness toward the one who believes.

Who? He alone gets the credit.

What? Righteousness is credited.

Why? By His good pleasure He determined to make righteous those who believe, not
to those who try to keep the Law or are born to natural Israel.

When? In God before time, which is in time for Him, but it was effectual at belief.

And, faith isn't coming up with a million dollars. Faith is receiving His five million dollars.
Faith is not part of the five million. Faith is not part of righteousness. God does not credit belief or credit faith, He credits righteousness to those who believe - two different things. "God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him"
 
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gmm4j

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Another misunderstood passage !
1 TIMOTHY 2

So far the arguement runs like this :

It is said that because we are commanded to pray for "all men" that God likewise wills the salvation of the same ... "all men"

yet if it can be shown from God's word that God forbids prayer to some men , then the meaning of "all men " in 1 Timothy 2 will need to be correctly understood as there are many ways of understanding "all men" without it meaning every single man , women and child.


For the set pas, (Nominative singular masculine of which pantas is the Accusative masculine plural) we find the following meaning elements listed in Louw & Nida (Semantic Domain GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON: United Bible Societies 1st edit. 1988)

pas a. all
b. any
c. total
d. whole
e. every kind of

Now a) above will unparcel to reveal: A1: All without exception, and ...
A2 All without distinction

And e) above will unparcel to reveal: E1 some of all sorts, and
E2 all manner of

Now which of these meanings did the Holy Ghost intend us to take as being the correct one to fit 1 Tim. 2:4? What do we do? Shall we say, Oh, I like this one, I’ll make it this one? Or, I feel led to A1, I’m certain that’s what God intended, I feel the witness within me? The Arminians insist on A1. On what grounds?
But now, what about the context? And what about the whole analogia fidei, by which we are to be guided when interpreting any difficult text such as this? Well first, the whole scope and tenor of Scripture shout that the Arminian interpretation A1 will put the text in contradiction to the Divine decrees. Knowing this, the Arminians do their utmost to extract as much anti-Calvinist mileage out of this text as they possibly can.

But manifestly, meaning elements e), and E1, and E2 will fit beautifully, and eliminate any contradiction with the rest of Scripture. That is, that God "will have all manner of men to be saved". In an age like the 1st Cent. AD, long before the rise of egalitarian democracies, when society was heavily stratified socially, and racial prejudices inflamed, it would have been vitally important to draw attention to the fact that God’s salvation was not only for one racial group, (the Jews, for instance, and much of the New Testament addresses precisely that question) or for one class of Society. Not only peasants, and slaves, but even middle class professionals and even rulers were to be addressed with the Gospel ("every creature", was emphasized, Mark 16:15). It was important to emphasize that "some of all sorts" of people were to be saved, by the Divine decree. And in historical practice, that is precisely how it has worked out, not all men without exception, but some of all sorts.

Now, it remains to examine the immediate context to the verse concerned. Notice how the phrase "all men" is coupled not only to the phrase "to be saved", but also to the clause: "to come unto the knowledge of the truth". In fact, in the Greek the coupling is closer than in the English. So it is God’s will that "all men" come "unto the knowledge of the truth" as well as that they be saved. Manifestly, they cannot be saved, without first coming unto the knowledge of the truth. (Rom. 10:14). And equally manifest is the fact that down through all the Old Testament period, and through the New Testament period, it has not been the will of God that "all men without exception" should come "unto the knowledge of the truth", but it has manifestly and indubitably been His will that "all manner of men", or "all kinds of men" should so come, and be saved. Some indeed, as Saint John says, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9 and cf. Rev. 11:9). Not all without exception.

Let the reader judge, what about all the billions of human beings absolutely excluded from the knowledge of the Gospel, and therefore salvation, for millennia? The millions of pre-Columbian America, the vast billions of China, and the East, and the manifold tribes of Africa ... all precluded from viewing the Gospel dispensation for most of the history of the world. Which interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:3-4 fits with reality.

But this is not all. Again looking at the immediate context of our verse we see in verse one preceding it the phrase "all men" used by the apostle again. The same Greek words are used as in verse 4 except for a change in the flexions for case endings. The apostle exhorts us to pray for "all men", an impossible task, if "all without exception is meant", for we are not allowed to pray for the dead, or for those who have committed the unpardonable sin. (I John 5:16). The Apostle makes it clear in verse two that by "all" in verse one he means "all kinds of" men, when he specifies that prayers should be made even for kings and all those in authority, that is, for those even of that exalted type of men who in most instances in those days were enemies that persecuted Christians, but from amongst whom God was pleased to save some.

We conclude therefore that the Holy Ghost wrote by the apostle that God willed "all kinds of men" to be saved. The interpretation is in beautiful harmony with the analogia fidei, the context and all the sound principles of exegesis, and the science of linguistics. A threefold cord is not quickly broken. (Eccl. 4:12).


Calvin vs. Hyper-Spurgeonism

And, we should only pray for "all kinds / sorts of authorities" and not actually pray for all authorities without exception. I'm glad to hear this because there are some I just really didn't want to pray for. Thanks for clearing this up.

1 Tim 2:1-5
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
.
 
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cygnusx1

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First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thankgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy, chapter 2, verses 1-4






Here we have the classic text that is used to show God wills the salvation of everyone!

but let us look again at this text.

who are we to pray for ?

"all men"

so the relationship of prayer to salvation is as extensive as God's will that all men are saved ........ ie , we should pray for "all men" for God desires "all men" to be saved.

supposing for a moment that "all men" means every single person who ever lived or who will ever live :


Now , upon what evidence is there that God wills the salvation of all men ?

And upon what evidence is there that we should pray for all men ?


If there is no evidence to show that we should pray for every single sinner then , there is no evidence that God will's the salvation of every single sinner.......

you may say , ''ah yes , but we cannot PROVE it means every single sinner , but we have no reason to ASSUME it doesn't mean every single sinner'' .......

really!

Is there not in the sacred scriptures a forbidding of prayer for Apostates ?




Jer.14:11-12. "Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine and by the pestilence."


1Jn.5:16. "If a man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."


Conclusion: then if we are forbidden to pray for Apostates then "all men" cannot mean every single human who ever lived!

All this shows that God does not will the salvation of every sinner ........ He may delight in salvation , He may desire that sinners are saved , He may take no delight in the death of the wicked , and still not plan to save everyone!
 
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JackSparrow

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Another misunderstood passage !
1 TIMOTHY 2

So far the arguement runs like this :

It is said that because we are commanded to pray for "all men" that God likewise wills the salvation of the same ... "all men"

yet if it can be shown from God's word that God forbids prayer to some men , then the meaning of "all men " in 1 Timothy 2 will need to be correctly understood as there are many ways of understanding "all men" without it meaning every single man , women and child......


Interesting but I am with Spurgeon. 1. All does mean all and 2. We can not know the secret mind of God because he has not told us.


Just google sermon 1516. Check for yourselves.
 
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Arcoe

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First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thankgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy, chapter 2, verses 1-4...

...Conclusion: then if we are forbidden to pray for Apostates then "all men" cannot mean every single human who ever lived!

All this shows that God does not will the salvation of every sinner ........ He may delight in salvation , He may desire that sinners are saved , He may take no delight in the death of the wicked , and still not plan to save everyone!

Since you have no way of insuring your salvation, you are putting yourself as a candidate of God not willing your salvation. Will believing save you? Not according to the posts concerning the seed falling among the rocks.

What if your faith is just a nominal faith (since you have nothing to do with it), God could have given you a nominal faith and will that you not be saved. Since faith is a gift from God, and nothing to do with you, how do you not know He has given you a dead faith? That should put fear in man, but it won't.
 
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cygnusx1

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Interesting but I am with Spurgeon. 1. All does mean all and 2. We can not know the secret mind of God because he has not told us.


Just google sermon 1516. Check for yourselves.

I love Spurgeon but think he is wrong on this one , I understand where he is coming from . I too believe in the Gospel Offer and think there are some texts that teach God is good to all , that His tender mercies are over all his creation etc .

Also keep in mind Spurgeon believed and preached openly Limited/definite atonement , so I am not sure what to make of his view that God wants every sinner saved but doesn't atone for them , I think Spurgeon may have given up attempting to be consistent , which is fine , we are not forced to agree over every last detail .

Furthermore Spurgeon was surrounded by two extreme errors Arminianism and Hyper Calvinism , so it really is not surprising he sometimes is inconsistent , he was aware of his inconsistencies and wasn't too bothered about them .
 
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cygnusx1

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Since you have no way of insuring your salvation, you are putting yourself as a candidate of God not willing your salvation. Will believing save you? Not according to the posts concerning the seed falling among the rocks.

What if your faith is just a nominal faith (since you have nothing to do with it), God could have given you a nominal faith and will that you not be saved. Since faith is a gift from God, and nothing to do with you, how do you not know He has given you a dead faith? That should put fear in man, but it won't.

You are asking about assurance , my assurance , I just follow the Biblical prescription , none can fall away who have saving grace , but saving grace needs testing .
 
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JackSparrow

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I love Spurgeon but think he is wrong on this one , I understand where he is coming from . I too believe in the Gospel Offer and think there are some texts that teach God is good to all , that His tender mercies are over all his creation etc .

Also keep in mind Spurgeon believed and preached openly Limited/definite atonement , so I am not sure what to make of his view that God wants every sinner saved but doesn't atone for them , I think Spurgeon may have given up attempting to be consistent , which is fine , we are not forced to agree over every last detail .

Furthermore Spurgeon was surrounded by two extreme errors Arminianism and Hyper Calvinism , so it really is not surprising he sometimes is inconsistent , he was aware of his inconsistencies and wasn't too bothered about them .


Hi cygnusx1

I read the link you posted about Surgeon being wrong on the "All men" issue.
Maybe he was. The important thing for me is where he says '"the Bible teaches both therefore I preach both". He goes on to show that no man can reconcile this issue. I recollect Calvin saying something similar in the Institutes. So I am still concluding that Calvinism is in error in part. You say above Arminisnism is 'extreme' error'. Which version ? My experience in the Uk is that most Christians are Arminian without realizing it. Even preachers with Calvinist leanings.
 
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cygnusx1

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Hi cygnusx1

I read the link you posted about Surgeon being wrong on the "All men" issue.
Maybe he was. The important thing for me is where he says '"the Bible teaches both therefore I preach both". He goes on to show that no man can reconcile this issue. I recollect Calvin saying something similar in the Institutes. So I am still concluding that Calvinism is in error in part. You say above Arminisnism is 'extreme' error'. Which version ? My experience in the Uk is that most Christians are Arminian without realizing it. Even preachers with Calvinist leanings.

Maybe , but I can never imagine Spurgeon praying for the salvation of every single sinner , in fact I can't imagine any Evangelical praying for something that is the equivalent of Universalism .
 
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JackSparrow

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Maybe , but I can never imagine Spurgeon praying for the salvation of every single sinner , in fact I can't imagine any Evangelical praying for something that is the equivalent of Universalism .

Hard hearted
 
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cygnusx1

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In my life experience several people are no longer alive.

I think this : Is it my fault their life terminated before they made a declaration of faith. I have PTSD about some peoples end.
Think soldiers. Think Medical staff making a boo boo. Another world, My step daughter messded with drugs and it was almost terminal overdose of just paracetamol. Teen issues and I was not the best by a long shot.

I prey hard about my foul ups. If it were up to me, i.e God said "you make the decisions on Judgment day". I would be a universalist although there would be some hard discipline involved.

C'mon , God saved you, why not some other soul. When I get to heaven it won't be pure joy. There will be sadness for those left behind who suffered because of me. Least that is where I am. God did not predestine my foul ups. They were my fault alone.

Seeing as praying for the dead is beyond the remit of Christians I don't see how a Christian would pray for all men ......my mind is at rest salvation is of The Lord , there maybe a universalist who prays God to save every soul , all others simply don't .
 
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JackSparrow

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Seeing as praying for the dead is beyond the remit of Christians I don't see how a Christian would pray for all men ......my mind is at rest salvation is of The Lord , there maybe a universalist who prays God to save every soul , all others simply don't .

Spurgeon
 
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cygnusx1

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Yeh he didn't pray for the dead so praying for all men isn't biblical , when was the last time you prayed for the Genesis flood multitudes ? And so I see a major inconsistency desiring what you don't pray .

John Gill.
 
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gmm4j

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First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thankgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy, chapter 2, verses 1-4

Really, I just want to know should I pray for all actual individuals in authority or just for all the different types of authorities?

Aren't all kinds of men made up of individual men? Aren't you glad He desired to save your type of man?
 
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Now , upon what evidence is there that God wills the salvation of all men ?

He doesn't will the salvation of all men. He wills the salvation of all men who believe. However, He has made that salvation available to all men without distinction.


“Jesus loves the little children,all the children of the world,
Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight,
Jesus loves the little children of the world.”


Herman: Well, that song was quite obviously written by an Arminian.
Calvin: Why do you say that?
Herman: Well, the song says that Jesus loves “all” the little children of the “world”. That is what Arminians believe, that Christ died for all and loves the world in such a way that He truly desires all to believe in Christ and be saved.
Calvin: Oh, well you have just misunderstood the context of the song.
Herman: What do you mean?
Calvin: Well, the context plainly demonstrates that “all” doesn't mean “every child without exception.”
Herman: It doesn't?
Calvin: Of course not. Look at the one line that says, “Red and yellow, black and white.”
Herman: Okay
Calvin: Well, it seems obvious to me that when he says “all the children of the world” he only means all the different colors of children in the world. You see, he is really concerned about racism and guarding against the false teaching that Jesus might only love red children and not any of the others, etc.
Herman: Is that right? I never realized that?
Calvin: Well, most people don't, but that is just because they pay no attention to context. That is why God gave us Reformed theologians to explain these things. I could give you a good book by a Calvinist where he spends about twenty pages explaining why “all the children of the world” really means “only a relatively few children from among all the various races of the world.”
Herman: Wow, it is amazing to me that I never realized that before. I think I would like to read that book. Thank God he didn't leave us on our own to interpret songs like this or we might come to some really bizarre conclusions. Imagine, if I had never talked to you I would have gone on just foolishly believing that the song was saying that Jesus actually loved “all” the children of the “world.” Thanks for your help.
Calvin: No problem. That's what I'm here for.
 
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