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Perfection or no?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Reformationist, May 29, 2017.

  1. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    It's simple...it's okay if you refuse to answer it. I understand.
    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  2. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No one did that, you are clutching at straws here, finding fault where there was none. I mean I don't care if you accuse me, I know better, what I said is all there in black and white, however it doesn't bode well for you to do something so obvious.

    Whenever I start picking/creating things that aren't there during a debate for no other reason but to discredit the other side, it's because I'm insecure with my stance, or augment for my stance, and that would be the only way I can at least have the illusion the problem is with the adversary, and not me, making me at least seem right..
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8).

    "If God doesn't discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all." (Hebrews 12:8 NLT).

    Solomon was chastised (or corrected by God) and yet Saul was not corrected, (for God's mercy departed from him).

    13 "He [i.e. Solomon] shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
    14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
    15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee."
    (2 Samuel 7:13-15).


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  4. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OK..Yes, to both, if indeed they are two questions, something you refuse to clarify.

    Why do you ask?
     
  5. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Because I really don't think you and I are that far off.
     
  6. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perfection always needs to be defined; perfection needs a subject and a predicate; a marble statue could be (deemed) perfect but as a God it is lifeless.

    How would one keep the Commandments perfectly; by standing still, hands in pockets, not doing 10 things? I am sure this is not what God requires. The range of things a person could be infinite and keeping the Commandments the range is restricted to infinity minus ten; each person will select a unique set from infinity. Perfection may be applied to what one does but not to what one does not do.
     
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    TRAP!

    God Bless!
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Bondage!

    ...

    God Bless!
     
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    "Ask me how I know." (new Garth Brooks song)...

    Peace,

    God Bless!
     
  10. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    The Great Command covers commission and omission. Our love of neighbor a self, is a command; therefore require obedience (Christ did this perfectly on our behalf)
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Sometimes certain people are really desperate to not see what God's Word plainly says.
    They speak, and they may even appear to shout what they believe, but it is empty and hollow because there is no Word of God in their speech to back them up.

    Jesus says be ye perfect as the Father is perfect.
    God says in His Word be ye holy because I am holy.
    Jesus says in Luke 6:40 that everyone who is perfect shall be as his master.
    Clearly there is no doubt that this is talking about perfection in relation to action.
    But if that is not enough.
    2 Timothy 3:16-17 makes it even more obvious.
    Abbreviated (or shortened), It says, "All Scripture is profitable... for instruction in righteousness...so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work."
    Still not enough?
    Okay. James says,
    "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2).
    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).
    "Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight,through Jesus Christ;" (Hebrews 13:21).
    "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

    There are more.
    But hopefully this should suffice to crumble the doctrines of men.


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    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
  12. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do not believe your teachers have got it right. The great command is quoted from the OT; what Christ has done on our behalf is die in our place, shed His blood for the remission of sin; which is some of God's part in the covenant.

    That God or Jesus has fulfilled the Law so that we do not need to is a paraphrase of or simile to Gen 3:1-5.

    Genesis 3:1-5 (NKJV)
    1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
    2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
    3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' "
    4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
    5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It is true that Jesus makes us perfect, but this is at the moment when we first accepted Christ. From that point we have to continue in Christ and strive for perfection as the goal of our Sanctification. At least that is what Paul essentially says in Philippians 3.

    “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 3:12).

    I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. (Philippians 3:12 NLT).


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  14. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You should read that verse in context.
    Luke 6:30-40
    30“Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34“If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

    37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38“Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”

    39And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40“A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

    I think that can help us all see the context of that verse, not as you have used it, but in the way it was intended by God.
     
  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One could say the one that is desperate uses big bold blue text, mixed in with big bold red text.

    But just quoting a phrase in a verse of scripture, does not mean it is in the correct context or that your mixed in explanation is correct.

    That is why people always need to double-check on their own.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    How on Earth does the underlined text you quote disprove what Jesus says in Luke 6:40? Jesus still says everyone who is "perfect" will be as (or like) His Master. So we are supposed to be in the likeness of Christ. That is why Paul says for me to live is Christ and to die is gain.


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  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I use color bolded text for folks to simply see what the Bible says plainly. It is a little harder to ignore bolded and colored text. It had nothing to do with desperation as you falsely assume but merely clarity of the message of God's Word.

    But thank you for the criticism. I will make even more of an effort to be clear with God's Word all the more (So people can clearly see what God's Word says). Perhaps larger text as a picture.


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  18. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    You post "It is saying if we say we have no sin (when we do sin) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. It is not saying you will always be in sin. 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense."

    I agree some with this.

    1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

    Both verbs "doth" and "sin" are present tense. It does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Christian to sin, but the Christian cannot continue (present tense) living in sin.

    Paul said to the Corinthians "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:9-11

    Paul said "such were some of you" meaning they could not become and remain faithfully saved Christians while continuing in those sins mentioned. It does not mean it was impossible for those Corinthian Christians to sin for they did sin and in chapter after chapter of the first Corinthian epistle Paul was giving instructions to correct those sins.

    It appeared to me at first you were saying it was not possible for Christians to sin.
     
  19. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Perfect law keeping is just that perfect, no sin and perfect law keeping was the only way under the law of Moses one could be justified before God. Therefore Paul's point in Romans 4 is that neither Abraham nor David were justified by the OT work of flawless law keeping but rather were justified by an obedient faith. Neither man was perfectly sinless but both had an obedient faith in repenting of their sins thereby receive God's forgiveness.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    And such WERE some of you. If the brethren Paul had written to had still stolen on occasion or murdered on occasion, then Paul could not say, and such WERE some of you.

    That would be like saying you WERE a police officer but you are still a police officer on occasion. Such a thing would be a contradiction. You either WERE a police officer (past tense) or not. John says he that says he knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and truth is not in Him. Who determines what practicing sin is? What constitues living in sin? Is it committing sin every day or every week or every month? Every two weeks? Who determines what lines is crossed on who is living in sin or who is practing sin versus just doing sin on occasion? See, one is in darkness even if they claim to know Jesus and yet break even one command. 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 2:4 are clear on this. Jesus says if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. Adam caused a separation between mankind and God by just one sin. So no. It does not take lots of sin to separate you from God. It only takes one sin.

    A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin. Christ will leave a person if He knows they will commit sin and He will then convict them to repent so as to restore the relationship. Sin is separation from God. A person who has the seed of Christ abiding in them and they are born again spiritually cannot sin in that state. It is only when they come into a state of darkness (outside of fellowship of Christ) and the old man whereby they can be enticed and sin. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?

    Surely Christians can sin. I was merely saying that Christians who mature in the faith will not be enslaved to sin in this life.



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