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PERFECTION NOW

Discussion in 'Wesley's Parish - Methodist/ Nazarene' started by GodsGrace101, May 25, 2019.

  1. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Does the Nazarene church teach that perfection
    is attainable in this life?

    Thanks.
     
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  2. Stranger36147

    Stranger36147 Member

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    Since perfection likely involves being without sin....probably not.
     
  3. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    The Church of the Nazarene Articles of Faith:

    X. Christian Holiness and Entire Sanctification

    10. We believe that sanctification is the work of God which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification, we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

    We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

    It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service. Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

    This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

    They have moved away from this however and not many believe in entire sanctification.
     
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  4. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would have to agree.
    Some on these forums believe this is what the Nazarene church believes.
     
  5. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What you posted does sound like perfection.
    The sentence that says that it is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith sounds like persons that say we are "positionally" sanctified.
    I don't believe in any type of "positionally", but only in real concepts.

    So they've moved away from this but have not changed their statement of faith?

    Thanks for the info.
     
  6. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    There has been a great deal of dispute about this. I had heard they were changing it.
     
  7. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    No they don't actually. I have not met anyone yet who believes in a second blessing holiness. There are arminians around but their view is not the same and do not view sin in the same way.
     
  8. actionsub

    actionsub Mike, he's just this guy, you know?

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    Technically, the entire Wesleyan spectrum of churches from United Methodist to Nazarene to Pentecostal Holiness teach full sanctification (aka perfection) is attainable in this life. That teaching was the main fuel of the Wesleyan movement.
    As others in this thread have pointed out, that teaching has been nuanced a bit since the start of the 20th century when the Nazarenes taught "eradication of the sin nature" as a product of sanctification.
     
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  9. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems like eradication of the sin nature is the same as perfection. No sin nature,,,,no sinning.

    Thanks.
     
  10. actionsub

    actionsub Mike, he's just this guy, you know?

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    You understand perfectly. Eradication = perfection. Nazarene writers in more recent years, particularly Keith Drury, have begun to soften that sort of language toward a more realistic stance.
     
  11. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It sounds like the church conforming to the world....instead of the other way around.

    The early father's faced this problem.
    They believed sinning would stop after baptism, but it didn't. Thus, Catholic confession.

    On phone, sorry for abruptness.
     
  12. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! New Member

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    Position IS a real concept. One example is Paul telling the Corinthians:

    "Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch--as you really are."

    I accept "entire sanctification" positionally, because it is true (Paul practically screams it from his letters!). Experientially? Nonsense. On stilts.

    But delusion does enable some to imagine it.
     
  13. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Those in modern times since Wesley and the Holiness Movement in the1800's who were 'deluded' and imagined it were outstanding believers, mission workers and trailblazers being part of the great revivals and growth of the church which has lost its power and social influence to co-incide with the deniers and sceptics to be found today.

    Those who claimed the were entirely sanctified never had reports from family and colleagues to repute them and instead gained reputations of being holy people.

    I don't know how people can see the state of the church these days, and the utter lack of power it has in the communities in which it is supposed to give witness in, to fail to put two and two together.

    People mock Christianity today because of it's hypercritical professors.
     
  14. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Could you post some scripture on this positionally idea?
    I'm not saying it's not there...I just can't remember this.
     
  15. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree with you and posted one of your ideas above.

    The world should copy the church; not the other way around.

    I don't believe it's possible to be sanctified in this life. If one understands how sensitive God is to sin,,,they'd understand that we sin all the time; sins others may not notice, but God does.

    I do believe however, that Christians should display their Christianity...Jesus said to let our light shine.
    Mathew 5.
     
  16. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! New Member

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    Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch--as you really are.—1 Cor. 5:7

    That was the one that popped into my head. Paul makes even stronger statements in Colossians 2, for ex:

    10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

    11In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

    13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

    How are these things done by God going to be undone? Who is going to asterisk His work and make Him out to be a liar?

    The above IS our position. The position IS the free gift of God. Paul always lays down the foundation of our secure position and THEN urges us to a worthy walk. Many reverse this, leading to instability in the walk.

    That’s my take away. Have a blessed day!
     
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  17. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course it's our position.
    All of the above how we get saved and what happens afterwards.

    So how is it positional?
    It's a REALITY.

    I'll try to read up on this over the week.

    Thanks!
     
  18. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Soldier For Christ

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    The concept of Entire Sanctification is something that the Nazarene and other holiness churches have changed their definition on many times. Today's definition which in my opinion is the more biblical one is that when someone has become born again and is saved they then begin the gradual process of the Holy Spirit sanctifying them or becoming more mature in love and motivation while also gradually getting rid of the sin nature. While perfection can never be achieved in this life it is the objective of every believer to become as holy as possible and to keep growing in grace. Personally I think a more appropriate term should be progressive sanctification because one will not ever encounter or achieve entire sanctification until after we die a physical death and our spiritual body then goes to Heaven where we really will be perfect in every aspect because of what Jesus did by dying for us on the cross and freeing us from the penalty of sin.
     
  19. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Soldier For Christ

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    This is true. Another interesting thing that I've always found interesting about Wesleyan's is that they believe that when someone has achieved salvation they can lose it but that a Christian can reach the point in their life where they are so in tune with God and sanctified that they will never be tempted to fall away.
     
  20. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Soldier For Christ

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    Sorry for spamming this thread but to add more content to this discussion a very wise and prominent UMC pastor and member of this forum called GraceSeeker once gave this definition of Entire Sanctification a few years back:

    Yes, some of this is terminology.

    For myself, the overarching concept is that of sanctification -- being set aside for God's purposes. Not just people, but even vessels are sanctified. With respect to people, sanctification is the purpose of life -- i.e. that we are to be set aside for God's purposes. I believe in that sense of the word that Adam and Eve were sanctified, and yet they fell. I believe this is because sanctification never negates our freedom.

    However, when one is entirely sanctified, then it isn't just one's life, but one's will that is also set aside for God's purposes. We pray as Jesus prayed (and actually mean it when we pray as he taught us to pray), "let thy will be done." Only when one's will set apart for God's purposes do I understand us to be entirely sanctified. So, according to my terminology, entire sanctification is the result of the process of sanctification, not the process itself.

    And the beginning of that process, the point of conversion/new birth, in which one returned one's life back to God and allowed it to be used for his purposes again, would be the initial moment of the beginning of that sanctification process.

    One of the more interesting things that I have observed in conversation with other Christians. Among those OSAS Baptists who seek conversation to discuss and better understand rather than to argue and convert me to their way of understanding, that when we get to talking about where our ideas about sanctification and OSAS understanding come from, that we are often really meaning the same thing, but using vastly different language to say it. Sadly, for many, theological language has become an impediment rather than a means to better understanding. But among my OSAS friends, what they mean is that if one has truly turned one's life over to God, then God's will is that one should never even feel the desire to sin and thus mutes those desires so that we never even will to do that which leads one to walk away from one's salvation. Very close to what I was trying to say about entire sanctification.
     
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