People Who Can Use Logic and Reason To Prove Their Faith?

[catlover]

Are there any of those on this board?

I had a challenge on GA for that...I am not one of those type of thinkers.


I had a suspicion there are some here...so if you may would you please visit GA?

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

No

But you can still explain it with such tools.

 

[MikeK]

It wouldn't be faith if we had proof.

 

[Maggie893]

Hey Catlover,

We can justify our faith with logic and reason but we can not prove our faith with logic and reason because that is contrary to faith in itself.

For anyone to have faith they must surrender their pride. Short of that it's all talk and perhaps fairly well justified but a person of pride will always try to find an escape route.

 

[stephenc]

Faith can be tough; but for those who find it, "logic and reason" aren't really important. (I would say both are important in dealing with "worldly" issues though).

 

[Miss Shelby]

It wouldn't be faith if we had proof.

This message brought to you by MikeK and the book of Hebrews.

 

[QuantaCura]

Concerning what MikeK said, that's true, but only in a certain sense. Hebrews describes how this sense is true--and the First Vatican Council and later Pope John Paul II elaborated on this relationship between faith and reason.

The unseen things we believe, we believe in faith on the testimony of God alone. That is what faith is all about. We can't prove with natural means the things revealed by God which can only be known because He has revealed them.

On the other hand, we can show the existence of God through natural means (St. Paul discusses this in Romans 1) and we can show where His authentic revelation can be found. But then we have to accept the truth in that revelation on faith.

We can also show why that faith is reasonable and logical. Once we demonstrate the premises that there is one God, creator and ruler of all, who is the principle truth, omnipotent and omniscient, perfect in all ways and perfect simplicity, and we show which revelation is His, then trusting His testimony becomes a completely logical decision. There's no good reason not to have faith in it.

 

[hsilgne]

Are there any of those on this board?

I had a challenge on GA for that...I am not one of those type of thinkers.


I had a suspicion there are some here...so if you may would you please visit GA?

When I first returned to my faith, I was faking it(for lack of a better word). But then I noticed that I was being drawn back to church. I didn't know then what that was - I know now it is the Holy Spirit.

Anyways, that is when I started to research the historicity of it all. And the more I researched the more I was drawn to learn more and the more I accepted the Truth logically.

The most important thing that I accepted logically was the evidence for the resurection. There is just too much historical evidence to discount it as a fable.

The next step for me was verifying the Catholic church. And again I have learned that there is just too much historical evidence to discount the claim made by the Church that She is the One True Holy Apostolic Church founded by and upon Jesus Christ.

As for going to GA....

I always end up angry and in a fight over there so I try to avoid it.

 

[QuantaCura]

When I first returned to my faith, I was faking it(for lack of a better word). But then I noticed that I was being drawn back to church. I didn't know then what that was - I know now it is the Holy Spirit.

Anyways, that is when I started to research the historicity of it all. And the more I researched the more I was drawn to learn more and the more I accepted the Truth logically.

The most important thing that I accepted logically was the evidence for the resurection. There is just too much historical evidence to discount it as a fable.

The next step for me was verifying the Catholic church. And again I have learned that there is just too much historical evidence to discount the claim made by the Church that She is the One True Holy Apostolic Church founded by and upon Jesus Christ.

I'm glad you brought up the working of the Holy Spirit. We can't downplay the role God plays in drawing us to Himself and to the truth. It's not just a mental exercise of our own doing. Two otherwise rational people often come to different conclusions when they look at the same evidence. For this, God gives all men the grace for seeking, (or at least the grace to pray for the grace of seeking), and then the grace of knowing and understanding, and then of conversion, etc. thereby guiding all men gently to Himself

 

[Gwendolyn]

It is logical and reasonable to have faith; but you cannot hope to indefinitely "prove" those things which require faith. I believe that St. Thomas Aquinas wrote a treatise on this matter.

 

[geocajun]

Are there any of those on this board?

I had a challenge on GA for that...I am not one of those type of thinkers.


I had a suspicion there are some here...so if you may would you please visit GA?

Most of us who have sufficient use of logic and reason, stay away from GA

If you need help with a specific thread, or discussion, please post the link to it here and you will find help

 

[stephenc]

"For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, no explanation is possible."

-John La Farge

 

[Carrye]

Prove natural things with natural means.
Prove supernatural things with supernatural means.

 

[Globalnomad]

What MikeK said.

Personally, I am a very logical person, and I can say I cannot prove God by inductive thinking (=starting from detailed points, to reach the conclusion that He must therefore exist) but by its opposite, deductive thinking: if I start from the general premise that He exists, everything else falls in place. If I start with the premise that He doesn't exist, things don't fall in place for me.

 

[stephenc]

This of course is an old catholic "challenge", adressed by the likes of Anselm and Thomas Aquinas (also Descartes, I believe), proving the existence of God by logical deduction. You could look into the "proofs" of these worthies if you think you can find something to strengthen your faith; but remember also Pauls words about "what we preach is folly to the greeks", the greeks then being the logical and scientific masters of that age.

(Love in Jesus Christ from a "Newbie" trying big theological boots on!) ;-)

 

[BAFRIEND]

Are there any of those on this board?

I had a challenge on GA for that...I am not one of those type of thinkers.


I had a suspicion there are some here...so if you may would you please visit GA?

There are many famous philosphers who have. Go to a book store and do some reading.

 

[Globalnomad]

The two most powerful arguments that spring to my mind are Thomas Aquinas's (the argument of conscience) and Pascal's (the leap in the dark - actually not a logical proof of God's existence, but a logical reasoning why it is rational to believe.). Any others?

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Good old Aristotle with the Cosmological argument - well, OK Aquinas' version fits Theism better, but Aristotle hasn't got a mention yet. It's actually a surprisingly durable that argument, I think so at any rate.

It's worth remembering that belief in God isn't necessarily faith though. There are many deists who accept the idea of an uncaused cause, but would deny that they had any kind of faith. I suppose for Christians, faith doesn't relate so much to the question of whether God exists or not, but whether Jesus Christ is the son of God.

 

[Globalnomad]

Well, yes. On that score (is Christ God?), I think C.S. Lewis ("Mere Christianity") did a superb job.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Well, yes. On that score (is Christ God?), I think C.S. Lewis ("Mere Christianity") did a superb job.

Yeah, that's what coverted that Domino's Pizza guy who's building that "Ave Maria" town in America.

Interestingly though, after he had the arguements of one of his books ripped apart in a debate, he placed less emphasis on proving his faith through reason - the title of the story of his conversion, "Surprised by Joy", is taken straight out of Wordsworth and emphasises more the emotional/mystical sense of God.