Pentecostals and Prophets

[horuhe00]

Why is it that where there are the most prophets and the most places God speaks directly to people is usualy in pentecostal/legalist churches?

 

[goodwinpro]

I'm sorry.... that doesn't make sense. To equate "penticostal" with "legalist".

On the other hand, I agree with your assessment about more prophets and God speaking in those churches. I think it's be cause the're open to allowing God to speak. Anyone CAN be open to God speaking, but very few actually ARE.

Just my opinion.

 

[horuhe00]

I'm sorry.... that doesn't make sense. To equate "penticostal" with "legalist".

Well, at least over here, pentecostal churches are known to be the ones with a list ful of rules of what one can and can't do, emphasising on Old Testament laws that Jesus Christ changed. (Galatians 3:1-25). Women can't wear pants, women must wear long skirts, women can't shave, etc. You get the picture.

 

[goodwinpro]

Well, at least over here, pentecostal churches are known to be the ones with a list ful of rules of what one can and can't do, emphasising on Old Testament laws that Jesus Christ changed. (Galatians 3:1-25). Women can't wear pants, women must wear long skirts, women can't shave, etc. You get the picture.

I see your point. However, you have to realize that it's PEOPLE that make those rules - NOT GOD. And Jesus came hard against man made rules when he was here.



Never the less, in actuality, a Pentecostal person (Spirit Filled) should be less legalistic than anyone else. "Where the Spirit of the lord is, there is freedom". When you're led by the Spirit, you tend to often brake those man made rules in favor of following God's voice. Which makes me wonder how spiritual those Pentecostal churches are that you are describing.

 

[horuhe00]

...Which makes me wonder how spiritual those Pentecostal churches are that you are describing.

So now we're two who wonder.

Since I belive (among other things) that Jesus came to change salvation by law to salvation by God's grace, it makes me scratch my head when I see these legalist churches that somehow are always full of people speaking in tongues, shaking violently, prophetising (sp?), in some cases God speaking directly through them in 1st person, and the like.

At least in my reasoning, it kinda contradicts itself.

 

[horuhe00]

And another thing, why is it that those types of churches (and any other church that does this) always preach as if they were angry and even though they have a microphone, always preach by yelling?

I don't know, It's a huge turn off for me every time I see them on TV and quickly change the channel.

 

[talitha]

My pastor doesn't preach as though he were angry, we're "pentecostal/charismatic" and we "do not forbid prophesyings," but I wouldn't call my church legalistic; I am on the worship team, and I often wear pants and usually don't leave my house without makeup on, etc.

Generally, the type of legalism you are talking about involves a strict application of every individual scripture to the lives of the people and the conducting of services, and that includes instructions to the churches about not despising prophecy but rather desiring it. Although I agree with that, obviously (see my siggie), there are some scriptures which need to be put into context in order to completely understand them. For example, Peter instructs women to not be overly concerned with their hairstyles, and Paul says that women's long hair is for covering, so certain church groups have made a law out of women not cutting or styling their hair at all. To me and you this seems Pharisaical, but it's simply their way of obeying what they believe the scripture to teach.

Many non-Pharisaical groups are also groups which either believe that prophecy has somehow "passed away" or "ceased" or they simply are leary of it -- too superfreaky. Some people lump prophecy and other supernatural gifts in with the strange-looking Pentecostal women they've seen and they don't want any of it.

So there's a continuum. Does that help you to understand?

blessings
tal

 

[DeaconDean]

Well, at least over here, pentecostal churches are known to be the ones with a list ful of rules of what one can and can't do, emphasising on Old Testament laws that Jesus Christ changed. (Galatians 3:1-25). Women can't wear pants, women must wear long skirts, women can't shave, etc. You get the picture.

They get there doctrine from a strict interpretation of:

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" -1 Tim. 2:9

As of late, here in America, the Pentecostal Holiness (Church of God) are relaxing their stance on this once strict doctrine.

 

[johnd]

I would revise it just a tad to those who "claim" to have prophetic revelations.

There are many voices.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

Matthew 16:15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was NOT revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 16:22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do NOT have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

There are many voices.

All voices that are not from God are from the Enemy. That is why in verse 23 Jesus called Peter Satan. Satan = enemy / adversary. It is also the primary / personal source of opposition to God. And human nature, human reason, human rationale is rife with satanic origins.

Read verse 23 above carefully and note that the things of men are not the things of God but are the things of Satan the devil.

It is human nature / reason that the devil gains a toe hold, then a foot hold then a strong hold in people's lives... even the believer's life (that is, the believer who does not put their faith into practice; who never tests the spirits by the word of God {1 John 4:1, Acts 17:11, 2 Timothy 2:15, 2 Timothy 3:16-17}, and who only takes the denomination's word for it, or the tradition's word for it, or even the pastor's word for it).

Christianity is filled with spiritual dullards. This is the result of allowing our living spirits to starve and become emaciated. These dullards do not feed their spirits with the Bible and prayer / quite time with the Lord. Instead, they follow the smooth talking salesman who peddles a certain brand of theology that most appeals to them.

No testing of the spirits whether they are from God, only concerning one's self with how it tickles their own fancy.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

That time is here. It has been here for a long while.

The only thing to do about it is for individual believers in Christ to repent of this spiritual laziness and neglect of personal obilgation to the Lord (Luke 6:46). We must begin gorging our souls on the Bible the Word of God, and to pray the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth, and we must verify all such guidance (by scripture). We must learn what our own personal spiritual gift is to service the body of Christ and win souls into the kingdom.

This kind of preaching is not heard from many pulpits for fear of putting themselves out of business...

There are many voices.

And I have no doubt often times the Lord speaks. I have no doubt the Lord would speak in many more churches that he does now were it not for church policies not to believe in such things.

I have no doubt there are many times when one claims "thus saith the Lord" the Lord actually said nothing... but the speaker wanted to seem important or simply wanted to vocalize a spiritually moving experience.

If we stopped imposing human opinion on this subject and instead follow the biblical prescription , there would be more prophesying (wider spread) and less of it (false or contrived babbling).

Bear in mind, God is speaking to us in one sense all the time. He indwells each and every believer. And he impresses upon us his will, his urging to do right and shun error.

 

[Compass05]

Women can't shave? That's foolishness. I don't know where you learned about our doctrine, but that at least is totally wrong.

In my opinion, most other denominations do not allow their members to open themselves up to God. The Baptists used to speak in tongues as much as the Pentecostals did, but one day someone walked into the church and said that people didn't HAVE to speak in tongues to get close to God.

I'd like to know how that works, seeing as speaking in tongues is one of the ways of displaying the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is one of the greatest ways to connect to God there ever was.

 

[eoe]

I do not think for one moment that God speaks to these people more. I believe that these people are trained to fall into delusion and be deceived by demons. The whole system is a textbook on how to be decieved.

 

[talitha]

Edit: whhooooops

 

[Compass05]

I do not think for one moment that God speaks to these people more. I believe that these people are trained to fall into delusion and be deceived by demons. The whole system is a textbook on how to be decieved.

What are you saying? How can anyone believe that someone who gets excited about God's promises is decieved by a demon?!

 

[Yusuf Evans]

If you want to see how charasmatic a Pentecostal church can be, the one I go to here in Hawaii is off the chain . Locals be chillin', showin up in Aloha shirts, shorts and slippers(sandals).

 

[stelow]

I'd like to know how that works, seeing as speaking in tongues is one of the ways of displaying the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is one of the greatest ways to connect to God there ever was.

Happy Birthday Compass 05


1 Corinthians 12:28-31 (New King James Version)

New King James Version (NKJV)
28</SPAN> And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[a] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Paul’s teaching here, is that not all believers will have the gift to speak in tongues (languages) and also that many of the other gifts will not be had by all. So we can know from scripture that the gift of tongues will not be had by every believer, only that they should desire to have the best gifts.

The last part of verse 31 “And yet I show you a more excellent way” is the lead up to 1 Corinthians 13 that goes on further to address the gifts, in that none of gifts are worth a hoot if they are not done out of love.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Paul’s teaching here, is that not all believers will have the gift to speak in tongues (languages) and also that many of the other gifts will not be had by all. So we can know from scripture that the gift of tongues will not be had by every believer, only that they should desire to have the best gifts.

The context is corporate worship . . . so all believers having the gift of devotional tongues is plausible (seeing that devotion is centering on the individual and corporate is not).

Also, the doctrines that the OP mentioned are not representative of most of today's Pentecostal church. Now only the fringe proponents and cultic versions (like Oneness) espouse these things.
As scholarship has entered into Pentecostalism over the last 50 years, Pentecostals have come to discern the truth of certain biblical passages and lay to the wayside doctrines that were once thought to be honoring to God. Grace and freedom in Christ have taken precedent over obscure and debatable texts.

L8R

 

[eoe]

How can anyone believe that someone who gets excited about God's promises is decieved by a demon?!

Very, very easily. Remember that Lucifer disguises himself as an Angel of light.

Read something older than 400 years. Remember that our religion is 2000 years old. If you want to understand it the best sources are the old ones. There are entire books - volumes of books that talk about this (prelest and delusion). IF you never read anything older than 400 years then you will not see it.

 

[talitha]

Also, the doctrines that the OP mentioned are not representative of most of today's Pentecostal church. Now only the fringe proponents and cultic versions (like Oneness) espouse these things.

Huh?

Here's the OP:

Why is it that where there are the most prophets and the most places God speaks directly to people is usualy in pentecostal/legalist churches?

I didn't know prophecy was "fringe" in pentecostal churches!

 

[lilangelmelanie]

I havent read all the replies so if this is already said I apologize in advance.

Speaking as someone who goes to a "charismatic" pentecostal church that does not believe in all the "rules" you listed above... I LOVE my church and this is why I believe more prophetic words and such come from this type of church- FREEDOM TO WORSHIP IN YOUR OWN WAY! I love that I can lift my hands, clap, shout, lay on the floor, whatever I feel I need to do to get close to God- no one will criticize me for what I wear (some sundays I wear JEANS to church *gasp*), and no one cares what I do because they are all worshiping as well. There is such a freedom and it is so liberating to be able to just seek God with no limitations... and I think that makes a huge difference in how people respond. And if people are more diligently seeking the Lord without hinderance... then the Lord will speak more often in those places because people are willing to be used and spoken through. just my opinion though

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Huh?

Here's the OP:



I didn't know prophecy was "fringe" in pentecostal churches!

Yes that is the OP . . . but not all of it. This question is undergirded by the astonishment that these people who prophesy are ALSO legalistic and hold to wacky doctrine . . . ergo, why (in doctrinally wacky churches) does it seem these people always "hear" from God more than the doctrinally sound churches.

The fringes that I was referring to are: long hair on women, nothing but dresses for women, no makeup, no jewelry on men or women, short hair only on men, no dancing, tongues as essential for salvation, etc. etc. etc.

These are the "fringes" I was referring to . . . not prophecy or any of the Gifts . . . c'mon now I am Pentecostal!