PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

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Al Touthentop

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John Mcarthur doesn't know what he talks about, saying all pentecostals are bad, if they were that bad, i wouldn't have received the Holy spirit in a pentecostal church, that made my belief in God go from barely believing in a cold far away God, to firmly believing for life in a God that can interact with us, is close to us and we can be sure he exists.

You don't have to believe that God no longer works through his church, just because you also believe that the spiritual gifts which Paul claimed were going to cease, ceased. They are not mutually exclusive ideas.

James 4:7-10
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Nowhere does James say that this requires one have some supernatural indwelling of the Holy Spirit for these things to take place. I think God works through his church today. I just do not see any evidence that church members possess the same gifts that were given to the apostles, the purpose of which was to confirm God's word, not fill the church congregations with awe and good feelings.
 
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Al Touthentop

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You're right that overemphasis on emotions or thinking can lead to heresies. Why can't we use both of those aspects of our personalities along with the other aspect, our deciding? I don't suppose that's possible this side of Jesus' return.

We should. But we should always test the spirits, as John wrote, and that requires our intellect. Why were the Bereans so much more approved? Because they had open minds and used their intellect to actually compare what he said against the scriptures.

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

The Holy Spirit and Luke wrote that these people who relied on their intellect, were "of more noble character."
 
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Al Touthentop

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They don't come with handy labels. That's not how it works.
I suppose you are trying to make the point that they MUST be KNOWN languages.

Those who DON'T speak in tongues LOVE to tell those who do HOW it should be done.
Thus revealing their ignorance of such things.

We get our information on this from biblical example. If you think that gaining knowledge from the Bible is trumped by somebody claiming to have spoken in a tongue but with no actual idea of what language was spoken or the content of the message spoken, then you are arguing that ignorance is superior to knowledge.

The entire point of the Holy Spirit's work was to guide us into all truth. If your tongue speaking isn't bringing anyone knowledge, it cannot, by definition, be from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never spoke jibberish, never caused anyone to speak jibberish, and never taught that ignorance and feelings should trump knowledge.
 
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Saint Steven

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Anything that doesn't conform with the apostle's doctrine, yet claims to be Christian.
Okay, thanks.
That's not the standard definition. It is usually defined as being opposed to orthodoxy.
Jesus himself, the apostles and many fine folks even today are heretics by definition.
 
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Saint Steven

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We get our information on this from biblical example. If you think that gaining knowledge from the Bible is trumped by somebody claiming to have spoken in a tongue but with no actual idea of what language was spoken or the content of the message spoken, then you are arguing that ignorance is superior to knowledge.

The entire point of the Holy Spirit's work was to guide us into all truth. If your tongue speaking isn't bringing anyone knowledge, it cannot, by definition, be from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never spoke jibberish, never caused anyone to speak jibberish, and never taught that ignorance and feelings should trump knowledge.
Perhaps I can help to expand your knowledge about tongues. Did you know that there is more than one kind of tongues?

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1)
Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic tongues - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
 
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Al Touthentop

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Perhaps I can help to expand your knowledge about tongues. Did you know that there is more than one kind of tongues?

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1)
Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic tongues - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)


You'll have to quote scripture to support this list.
1. ??
2. ??
3 - The term "prophetic tongues" does not occur in the New Testament.
4 - Singing in the spirit? Are you referring to Ephesians 5?
5 - the only way that tongues are described as being used in the New Testament.
 
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Saint Steven

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We get our information on this from biblical example. If you think that gaining knowledge from the Bible is trumped by somebody claiming to have spoken in a tongue but with no actual idea of what language was spoken or the content of the message spoken, then you are arguing that ignorance is superior to knowledge.

The entire point of the Holy Spirit's work was to guide us into all truth. If your tongue speaking isn't bringing anyone knowledge, it cannot, by definition, be from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never spoke jibberish, never caused anyone to speak jibberish, and never taught that ignorance and feelings should trump knowledge.
1 Corinthians 8:1
... knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

1 Corinthians 14:3
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
 
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Saint Steven

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You'll have to quote scripture to support this list.
1. ??
2. ??
3 - The term "prophetic tongues" does not occur in the New Testament.
4 - Singing in the spirit? Are you referring to Ephesians 5?
5 - the only way that tongues are described as being used in the New Testament.
You obviously haven't done your homework and are only interested in arguing.
Do you know what Cessationism is?
 
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Al Touthentop

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You obviously haven't done your homework and are only interested in arguing.
Do you know what Cessationism is?


I want you to back up your claims with the scriptures. If I was only interested in arguing I wouldn't have asked for your scriptural references for these claims you make.

Ephesians 5:18 is not an evidence for singing in tongues. It's part of a long list of things one does to be "filled with the spirit" or in another place letting "the word of God dwell within you." Same list which equates being filled with the spirit as having the word of God dwell in you. Nothing about tongues there.

I might guess as to the other scriptures but I'd rather you point them out.
 
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Kenny'sID

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I want you to back up your claims with the scriptures. If I was only interested in arguing I wouldn't have asked for your scriptural references for these claims you make.

Ephesians 5:18 is not an evidence for singing in tongues. It's part of a long list of things one does to be "filled with the spirit" or in another place letting "the word of God dwell within you." Same list which equates being filled with the spirit as having the word of God dwell in you. Nothing about tongues there.

I might guess as to the other scriptures but I'd rather you point them out.

I think this is the part where they stop accepting very sensible questing/requests, and only ask them.

When this starts happening you can most often be assured you are doing a great job at making your point.
 
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Al Touthentop

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1 Corinthians 8:1
... knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

You could have quoted the whole thing.....

Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

In context, he was saying that the knowledge that a thing is lawful under Christ's law, was not always edifying in its practice when performed in front of people who didn't have that knowledge. He was not saying that knowledge was a bad thing.

However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you.

Is that not knowledge? Does the knowledge that he imparts puff up?

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Was John puffed up or trying to puff up people?
1 Corinthians 14:3
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

As juxtaposed to those speaking in tongues.
 
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Saint Steven

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If I was only interested in arguing I wouldn't have asked for your scriptural references for these claims you make.
Seriously? - lol

Do you know what Cessationism is?
 
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Skidder

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So what languages have you spoken?

Concerning the gift of tongues, not one that you would understand. You're still trying to twist it to satisfy your intellect. Read it again, the way it is written. This verse is not encrypted, it says what it says, unless of course it offends your intellect?

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Seriously? - lol

Do you know what Cessationism is?

Do you have scriptural references for what you are trying to teach me or don't you?

Perhaps I can help to expand your knowledge about tongues.

Not without the Scriptures you can't.
 
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Skidder

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You're right that overemphasis on emotions or thinking can lead to heresies. Why can't we use both of those aspects of our personalities along with the other aspect, our deciding? I don't suppose that's possible this side of Jesus' return.
I agree, and Satan knows this as well. Imagine if they came together as one body! The hand would not be fighting with the foot, and the eye would not be calling the ear blind. A body that moved as one would surely be a sight to behold!
 
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Al Touthentop

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Concerning the gift of tongues, not one that you would understand. You're still trying to twist it to satisfy your intellect. Read it again, the way it is written. This verse is not encrypted, it says what it says, unless of course it offends your intellect?

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.


You're right. It's not encrypted. If you are speaking a language that nobody understands you aren't edifying anyone. It's the beginning of a treatise on what the purpose was for this gift.

This isn't saying that the ONLY person you're speaking to when you speak in a "tongue" is God. He couldn't be saying that because the first example we have of people speaking in tongues was the apostles who praised God and preached to them. They were at that time (the multitude) unbelievers. And this is exactly what Paul explains is the purpose of speaking in tongues. It is for unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

So Paul would not then be in verse 2 be redefining what it meant to speak in tongues. That would make his statement in verse 22 a reversal. If a person speaks in tongues only to God, then do you also assert that God is an unbeliever? Come on. You can't take a single scripture as a standalone definition for something. It has to harmonize with the rest and it must be included in its context to be understood properly.

1. Corinthians 14:23
Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

He has just said that tongues are a sign for unbelievers and here it looks like he's contradicting himself because he's said "uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

What he means by "uninformed" is ignorant of the language you're speaking and what in the world you're doing. The only way that speaking in tongues can bring a believer into belief is if what is being said is understandable to them.

How could tongues possibly be a sign for unbelievers if they didn't understand what was being said? I have an Aunt who has dementia. She speaks gibberish all the time. How would I understand which gibberish was from God and what was just incoherent nonsense? How can anyone? That's what Paul was telling them. If there's nobody to understand the language, they'll just think you're out of your mind.
 
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fwGod

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This term means foreign languages.
What you said is not correct according to the apostle Paul, ".. he that speaks in unknown tongues speaks not unto men.." That can only mean that what is spoken is not foreign languages. The apostle Paul who spoke in tongues more than those at Corinth would know what he was talking about.
Al Touthentop said:
People who spoke in tongues (spoke decipherable words in a foreign language) were able to communicate the gospel in languages they had never learned before to people who spoke those languages.
Speaking in tongues is not for the purpose of communicating the gospel. The apostle Paul stated that when in the church he would rather speak five words in an understood language than to speak ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Al Touthentop said:
So what languages have you spoken?
If you claim that the verses are only talking about foreign tongues.. it makes me think that you sound so sure because you have spoken in foreign tongues. So I would return your question to you.

What language have you spoken?
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you have scriptural references for what you are trying to teach me or don't you?

Not without the Scriptures you can't.
I'm not going to waste my time with someone who has an argumentative and unteachable spirit. In just a few posts you have set yourself to try to correct me about matters you obviously have no experience with or knowledge about. You have decided it is false, you'll have to live with that.
 
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Al Touthentop

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According to the apostle Paul, what you said is not correct. ".. he that speaks in unknown tongues speaks not unto men.."

Ho boy. A person who speaks French among a group of men who speak English, is not speaking to them. They'll probably have to resort to sign language to communicate with each other. He is NOT saying that speaking in tongues is itself speaking "not unto men." He's saying that it is entirely ineffective in communicating with other men. The Greek word γλοσσολαλια is a compound word which if literally translated would mean "language speaking."

He would therefore be contradicting himself when he said that the purpose of speaking in tongues was for unbelievers.

That can only mean that what is spoken is not foreign languages.

No, that can not be the only thing that sentence means and especially not when taken in context with what else Paul writes there. If you think that's the only way to interpret that passage, then the scripture is erroneous that says the multitude on the day of Pentecost understood the apostles. Not only did they understand them, but there were many languages spoken and the real amazement was that the people speaking these languages were all from Galilee, a place where such languages were not spoken.
The apostle Paul who spoke in tongues more than those at Corinth would know what he was talking about.

Yup. And he said that tongues is for the unbeliever, not the believer.
Speaking in tongues is not for the purpose of communicating the gospel.

Why then did the apostles do exactly that on the day of Pentecost? I mean...what could they have accomplished had they merely spoke gibberish that no one understood?
The apostle Paul stated that when in the church he would rather speak five words in an understood language than to speak ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Exactly correct. After explaining why speaking in tongues when there was nobody to understand them, results in no communication, but confusion.
If you claim that the verses are only talking about foreign tongues.. it makes me think that you sound so sure because you have spoken in foreign tongues. So I would return your question to you.
The word Paul used is Greek and it means to speak in another language. He goes on to explain exactly why having people understand what is being said is important. I can read Greek and some Spanish. If I have spoken in a tongue, it was not because the Holy Spirit caused me to do it. One can speak fluently in several languages without God's direction. The reason that speaking in tongues was so impressive a sign was that the speaker was not a learned person in the language being spoken. The only way that a person could accomplish the task was by direct spiritual guidance.

But it is completely unimpressive and unpersuasive if nothing that's being said is understandable by anyone present, including the speaker.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I'm not going to waste my time with someone who has an argumentative and unteachable spirit. In just a few posts you have set yourself to try to correct me about matters you obviously have no experience with or knowledge about. You have decided it is false, you'll have to live with that.

You said you could educate me or enlighten me. I asked you to do just that but not to merely repeat unsupported assertions as if that was enlightenment. I am more than happy to consider the scriptures you cite, if indeed you can. But I am getting the impression that you cannot. Instead, you are just blaming me for this inability to do so.
 
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