Pennsylvania family ordered to take down Jesus Christmas

Johnboy60

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SeventyOne

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HOA's can be tricky things. The sticking point is they say it is in violation because it is a sign, and it is. They agreed to those rules when they signed up to live there. It's a bit self-serving to think they can break rules they've agreed to just because they feel they want to. If they believe the sign, they need to keep their word.

Just convert the sign into a decoration, such as each letter separated, sticking into the ground on its own, but in an obvious order so it still reads the same. Problem solved. The neighbor still might have a personal issue, but the holiday would have come and gone by then.
 
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LaSorcia

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They agreed to those rules when they signed up to live there.
Yes, I know that. What happens when we can't buy a home that isn't in one of these HOAs? These things are a violation of liberty. I lived in a subdivision with an HOA once, because I had no other choice at the time. It was a posh with perfectly manicured lawns. And it was completely devoid of culture and real life.
Just convert the sign into a decoration, such as each letter separated, sticking into the ground on its own, but in an obvious order so it still reads the same. Problem solved.
That sounds like true freedom to me.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Yes, I know that. What happens when we can't buy a home that isn't in one of these HOAs? These things are a violation of liberty. I lived in a subdivision with an HOA once, because I had no other choice at the time. It was a posh with perfectly manicured lawns. And it was completely devoid of culture and real life.

But I’ll bet it sure looked good from the outside and maintained those ever important property values.
 
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LaSorcia

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But I’ll bet it sure looked good from the outside and maintained those ever important property values.
And don't forget, it made people feel ever so important too, with their private swimming pool and the incredibly stupid gate that needed a password to enter, but any lunatic could just bypass by driving on the grass on either side of it...
 
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Aryeh Jay

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And don't forget, it made people feel ever so important too, with their private swimming pool and the incredibly stupid gate that needed a password to enter, but any lunatic could just bypass by driving on the grass on either side of it...

Some even have empty guard shacks at the gate.
 
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LaSorcia

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Anyway, my point was that why is okay for an HOA to tell someone to take down a religious sign, when the government can't? A contract is not a contract when there is no other option. Thankfully, we still have the option to purchase homes that are not in subdivisions like this. For now.
 
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SeventyOne

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Yes, I know that. What happens when we can't buy a home that isn't in one of these HOAs? These things are a violation of liberty. I lived in a subdivision with an HOA once, because I had no other choice at the time. It was a posh with perfectly manicured lawns. And it was completely devoid of culture and real life.

That sounds like true freedom to me.

I've never heard of not being able to buy a home that wasn't HOA. I live in a HOA community now, my first. I have no issues with it whatsoever, but I read what I was agreeing to when I moved in.
 
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SeventyOne

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Anyway, my point was that why is okay for an HOA to tell someone to take down a religious sign, when the government can't? A contract is not a contract when there is no other option. Thankfully, we still have the option to purchase homes that are not in subdivisions like this. For now.

It doesn't sound to me like the issue was that it was a 'religious' sign, but that it was a sign, period.

And they can tell you to take it down because you sign a contract agreeing to abide by their rules when you move in. Like I said, make it a decoration and not a sign, and no more violation.

Also, if people don't like their HOA, they can run for a slot on the board, or at the very least, attend the meetings and try to affect their policies.
 
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LaSorcia

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Also, if people don't like their HOA, they can run for a slot on the board, or at the very least, attend the meetings and try to affect their policies.
Where I lived, they were unalterable 'covenants' and expired in seven years. Also, while this idea is true in theory, a lot of people don't have the time or energy to do this. And it doesn't negate the fact that these little 'governments' can get away with a lot of stuff that would be illegal otherwise.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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When you sign up for an HOA...the reality that you don't have total sovereign control over the exterior of your home is well documented. I'm not sure why anyone would want to sign on for that.

Of course, not surprisingly, Fox News is hinting at the "War on Christianity" angle with this story. In reality, it's just highlight of why HOA's are a terrible idea and why nobody (with any respect for property rights) should enter into one.

Paying extra money to forfeit certain property rights seems silly to me.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Anyway, my point was that why is okay for an HOA to tell someone to take down a religious sign, when the government can't? A contract is not a contract when there is no other option. Thankfully, we still have the option to purchase homes that are not in subdivisions like this. For now.

Not saying I disagree with the idea of what you're saying, but in terms of the laws surrounding HOA's, those contracts are legally binding.

Homeowners' Association—What Is an HOA? - Lawyers.com

When you buy a property governed by a homeowners' association, you automatically become a member of the association. You don't have the choice of not joining. The purchase of your home becomes a contract with the HOA. You agree that you'll obey all the HOA rules and pay regular dues and any special assessments.

When a homeowner breaks a rule—for example, paints a house the wrong color, or brings in a dog that exceeds the weight restrictions—the HOA may take action. Legally speaking, many HOAs are corporations; that is, legal entities that can enforce contracts with their homeowners.

The action may simply be to require the homeowner to reverse the violation; perhaps repaint the house, or give away the dog.

However, another common penalty is requiring the homeowner to pay a fine. If the homeowner refuses to pay, the HOA can take more punitive steps, up to and including forcing the sale of the home.



Like I mentioned in my previous post, I don't know why anyone would voluntarily put themselves in this situation.
 
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Desk trauma

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Anyway, my point was that why is okay for an HOA to tell someone to take down a religious sign, when the government can't?

Because the first amendment and its accompanying case law restricts the actions of the state and those acting on its behalf not the actions of private citizens.
 
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SeventyOne

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Like I mentioned in my previous post, I don't know why anyone would voluntarily put themselves in this situation.

Because the neighborhood stays well groomed. Also, because we have 2 pools, a water slide, a clubhouse, weight room, and a community center. We also have multiple lakes and ponds with catch and release fishing, basketball courts, soccer field, baseball/softball park, a disk golf course, volleyball, skate park, bike and running trail, a nature trail, multiple parks for the kids and cookouts, community movie night and pancake breakfasts every quarter, family bingo, community game nights each month, and other stuff.
 
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Desk trauma

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Also, while this idea is true in theory, a lot of people don't have the time or energy to do this.

If someone doesn't have the energy or time to read a contract, violation of which could possibly cost them their home, they are an idiot for signing it.
 
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RDKirk

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Anyway, my point was that why is okay for an HOA to tell someone to take down a religious sign, when the government can't? A contract is not a contract when there is no other option. Thankfully, we still have the option to purchase homes that are not in subdivisions like this. For now.

Because the Constitution is a constraint on government, not on citizens, and the Constitution also ensures the right of citizens to join associations in which they agree to certain mutual behaviors.
 
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Desk trauma

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When you sign up for an HOA...the reality that you don't have total sovereign control over the exterior of your home is well documented. I'm not sure why anyone would want to sign on for that.

Of course, not surprisingly, Fox News is hinting at the "War on Christianity" angle with this story. In reality, it's just highlight of why HOA's are a terrible idea and why nobody (with any respect for property rights) should enter into one.

Paying extra money to forfeit certain property rights seems silly to me.

Agree.

HOA's, do have the ability to make rules, that are motivated by keeping the external appearance of homes, inline with some level of conformity and avoid "eye sores", etc...

It is a tricky thing though, because I do think, HOA's go too far in some regards. One of my neighbors in a previous subdivision I lived in, was an attorney and he had issues with the HOA with landscaping that broke the rules and he ended up winning in court, because he challenged the rules on constitutionality.

In general, HOA's are only allowed to create restrictions, that are directly based on this criteria:

1. It is a safety issue, that keeps homeowners safe
2. The rules are driven by protecting preservation areas
3. The rules are related to resale value of homes and creating such an eye sore, other home values suffer
4. Putting up anything considered offensive, in regards to language etc..

If people are allowed to put up political signs with names, I don't see why they couldn't put up Jesus' name.
 
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