Penal Substitutionary Atonement

[GodsGrace101]

The Lord Jesus also cried at the Cross: "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

In Hebrews the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross are so closely bound up; and the cost He bore to fulfil the sin reconciling work there was immense because of the wrath of God for sin.

Was the wrath of God for sin or for Jesus?
I'm usually not persistent, but I've never heard this before.

We can't be sure what Jesus meant when He cried out My God, My God.
He might have been reciting Psalm 22 or it could be that at that moment he felt alone because God had abandoned Him due to the sins of the world that He bore.

So are you saying that God felt wrath toward His own Son?
Or toward the sins in Him?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I admit I'm guilty of this sometimes, but yes, what this really means is "denying my interpretation is to deny the gospel".

Which you've replaced with, "denying some other dude's interpretation is to deny the gospel."

It makes the argument easier to shrug off, but it lacks the admirable quality of autonomy.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Good verses for us. Especially that Isaiah 53 one -- with His stripes we are healed.

Now....we know that because Christ was lifted up, all people have a chance to look to Him, and be drawn to Him, and be saved. I tend to object to the words "penal" in the OP because I feel we are leaving out something with "penal" in part because of how what Christ did for us was atoning, meaning not only to suffer for our sins (and suffer even from our sins I think), not only is something done we don't fully understand, above us, but additionally something is done inside us individually.

Well, the Lord Jesus paid the penalty for sin at the Cross.

 

[faroukfarouk]

@GodsGrace101 The 2 Corinthians 5.21 verse goes into the aspect you were asking about.

 

[Halbhh]

Well, the Lord Jesus paid the penalty for sin at the Cross.

Yes. And, additionally, more. Our own urge to sin unrepentantly is broken when we contemplate Him on the cross. (Is that what that verse saying 'the power of sin has been broken' means?)

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes. And, additionally, more. Our own urge to sin unrepentantly is broken when we contemplate Him on the cross. (Is that what that verse saying 'the power of sin has been broken' means?)

It's also a finished work; Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 make this very clear.

 

[tampasteve]

The Scriptures I quoted above demonstrate this. Jesus did not suffer wrath because he was guilty of his own sins. He suffered wrath because he assumed the guilt of our sins.

Sure, but none of those verses show that he suffered God's wrath throughout his life, which is what you said.

 

[GodsGrace101]

@GodsGrace101 The 2 Corinthians 5.21 verse goes into the aspect you were asking about.

OK FF
We'll end this here with this:
2 Corinthians 5:21 just says that God made Jesus sin so that sin could die at the cross, not that God hated Jesus.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Our Lord made a perfect atoning sacrifice that was pleasing to God. But this notion that He was considered by God to somehow be literally guilty of our sins and then punished accordingly is simply not true.

 

[Halbhh]

It's also a finished work; Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 make this very clear.

I often wonder why people repeat this obvious basic fact -- that Christ finished the work of the cross. I mean -- is there even one person anywhere that believes yet doesn't know that? Why does this basic thing get repeated, by itself, in isolation, like a key new thing for us to learn? Are there really a lot of people truly thinking their own works save them??? It's hard to find anyone that does, but maybe that's because we joined a Lutheran church, which emphasizes Ephesians 2:8-9 so strongly. Is it that America has lots of people thinking their own works save them, and I'm unaware of this tendency? Because brother, I can't find anyone saying their works save them. Where are these people?

Such were very numerous when Paul was writing his epistles! Maybe they are numerous in other regions or other churches than I know of now.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Our Lord made a perfect atoning sacrifice that was pleasing to God. But this notion that He was considered by God to somehow be literally guilty of our sins and then punished accordingly is simply not true.

2 Corinthians 5.21.

By God's wondrous grace I am legally innocent of my sins because the Lord Jesus took on the guilt in my place.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I often wonder why people repeat this obvious basic fact -- that Christ finished the work of the cross. I mean -- is there even one person anywhere that believes yet doesn't know that? Why does this basic thing get repeated, by itself, in isolation, instead of the bigger and more complete messages of those chapters?

...because so many people in church regard going to church and attending ceremonies as being something to keep doing in order supposedly to get right and stay right with God.

 

[Halbhh]

2 Corinthians 5.21.

By God's wondrous grace I am legally innocent of my sins because the Lord Jesus took on the guilt in my place.

Those sections of Paul's epistles, where after telling the people of Grace, then Paul continues and says to them over and over to stop sinning, to die to the flesh. Paul is encouraging and warning and sometimes emphatically warning -- be changed, be totally changed...through Christ.

Fortunately, we are forgiven as we confess, as we learn in 1 John chapter 1. But the amazing Grace is that not only are we forgiven, as we confess, but more, that we are even cleansed of all unrighteousness. So, as we walk, and sometimes stumble, then we confess, and are forgiven, over and over, and this is grace, through faith in Christ.

 

[Micah888]

Not really.

If we go strictly by what is revealed in the Bible then "really".

1. The penalty for sin is death. Which includes both the first death (physical) and the second death (eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire).

2. Either all sinners must die both deaths, or a substitute must be provided whose blood must be shed to *atone* for sins.

3. The blood of animals shed under the Old Covenant was only able to *cover* sins. Hence the Hebrew word kaphar is used and translated as *atonement*. Therefore there were daily, periodic, and annual sacrifices required under the Old Covenant.

4. But the blood of Christ -- called "the blood of God" -- has infinite value not only to take away our sins, but to wash and cleanse our souls, so that the defilement and guilt of sins are removed at the same time as our sins are forgiven.

5. However, there was more than the blood being shed. The sufferings of Christ during His passion, as well as the offering up of Himself -- body, soul, and spirit -- was the total sacrifice which replaced all previous sacrifices. "He made His soul and offering for sin".

6. When Christ suffered on the Cross during those three dark hours, He literally bore the wrath of God against all sins and all evils upon Himself. Hence "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The theological terms are "penal substiutionary atonement" but for those who want the simple truth, John the Baptizer said "Behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

So anyone who denies these truths falsifies the Gospel.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Those sections of Paul's epistles, where after telling the people of Grace, then Paul continues and says to them over and over to stop sinning, to die to the flesh. Paul is encouraging and warning and sometimes emphatically warning -- be changed, be totally changed...through Christ.

Fortunately, we are forgiven as we confess, as we learn in 1 John chapter 1. But the amazing Grace is that not only are we forgiven, as we confess, but more, that we are even cleansed of all unrighteousness. So, as we walk, and sometimes stumble, then we confess, and are forgiven, over and over, and this is grace, through faith in Christ.

...but confession of sins - a healthy thing to do with one another (James 5.16) - is never a substitute for the finished work of Christ. "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10.14). "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9.28). "...we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10.10). "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." (Hebrews 10.12-13)

 

[Colter]

The Bible teaches that Jesus saves sinners by substituting for them in judgment and facing the wrath of God in their place. Throughout Jesus' entire life - and especially on the cross - he suffered the wrath of God for sins. On the cross, Jesus propitiated the wrath of God. If we are in Christ, the wrath of God does not remain on us. Rather, we enter into the blessing of God. This entails several Biblical truths:

1. All the suffering that we are liable to in this life, including death itself, is due to God's wrath and curse upon sin (Genesis 3:16-19).
   
   
2. Those who disobey God merit covenant curse, which includes the anger and displeasure of God bringing about misery for a person and ultimately bringing about the person's death (Deuteronomy 28:15-68, Romans 6:23).
   
   
3. Many sacrifices in the Old Testament were of a propitiatory and substitutionary nature (Genesis 22, Exodus 12, Leviticus 16, 2 Samuel 24:25). The animals symbolically bore the sin of the people and were killed to satisfy God's wrath.
   
   
4. Jesus bore our sins in his body - especially on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). In the body of Jesus, God condemned sin (Romans 8:3). Jesus bore the curse from God due to sin (Galatians 3:13).

This is the core of the gospel. There is no other gospel. Without penal substitutionary atonement there is no gospel. It is only through the removal of God's wrath that we enter into his blessing, gain citizenship in his kingdom, gain access to the Holy Spirit, are given repentance and faith, are healed of all of our diseases and iniquities, and will be raised up at the last day. To deny penal substitutionary atonement is to deny the gospel.

In the original gospel that Jesus taught and lived, salvation was by faith in the Father, forgiveness was by asking and in turn forgiving others. It’s the gospel Jesus had hoped the Jews would have received. They would be teaching the original gospel today from Jerusalem had they accepted it.

After Jesus left a new gospel replaced his original gospel. The new gospel was more appealing to the Pagan world that already believed in human sacrifice and blood drinking rituals. The two movements merged. It’s an easier, simpler Gospel about Jesus, not of Jesus.

 

[Halbhh]

If we go strictly by what is revealed in the Bible then "really".

1. The penalty for sin is death. Which includes both the first death (physical) and the second death (eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire).

2. Either all sinners must die both deaths, or a substitute must be provided whose blood must be shed to *atone* for sins.

3. The blood of animals shed under the Old Covenant was only able to *cover* sins. Hence the Hebrew word kaphar is used and translated as *atonement*. Therefore there were daily, periodic, and annual sacrifices required under the Old Covenant.

4. But the blood of Christ -- called "the blood of God" -- has infinite value not only to take away our sins, but to wash and cleanse our souls, so that the defilement and guilt of sins are removed at the same time as our sins are forgiven.

5. However, there was more than the blood being shed. The sufferings of Christ during His passion, as well as the offering up of Himself -- body, soul, and spirit -- was the total sacrifice which replaced all previous sacrifices. "He made His soul and offering for sin".

6. When Christ suffered on the Cross during those three dark hours, He literally bore the wrath of God against all sins and all evils upon Himself. Hence "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The theological terms are "penal substiutionary atonement" but for those who want the simple truth, John the Baptizer said "Behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

So anyone who denies these truths falsifies the Gospel.

Valuable to me was to notice how #4 lines up perfectly with 1 John 1:8-9. Also let me point out you and I will only rarely meet anyone who with understanding denies Christ's sacrifice for us, but instead we will meet dozens (or more) that merely don't have full awareness, simply lack the knowledge, and so are only in a state of not-yet-having-heard the fullness, which they may hear today, or 10 years from now, for all we know. We need to avoid ascribing motive to them of course.

 

[Halbhh]

...but confession of sins - a healthy thing to do with one another (James 5.16) - is never a substitute for the finished work of Christ. "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10.14). "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9.28). "...we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10.10). "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." (Hebrews 10.12-13)

Confessing as a substitute instead of Christ? No, since the very cleansing of 1 John 1:8-9 depends on Christ's work for us! I do appreciate though the crucial, crucial need for people to get this -- that amazingly though Grace, which is truly an amazing Grace, we are forgiven! It's amazing the forgiveness! That's so central to take in. The parable of the Prodigal Son helps a lot I feel (it helped me a lot!), and also the Parable of the Unmerciful Debtor (that you and I are forgiven a debt even of 10,000 bags of gold, something we could never work enough to repay here in this life). What an amazing gift. What wondrous love!

 

[Micah888]

Was the wrath of God for sin or for Jesus?

The wrath of God was for sin -- all sins ever committed. But Christ willingly and voluntarily became our "Sin-Bearer".

For he [God the Father] hath made him [Christ the Lamb of God] to be Sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5:21)

[I have capitalized "Sin" because the Bible says "...and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa 53:6).]

Therefore Christ compared Himself on the Cross to the Brazen Serpent in the wilderness which Moses "lifted up" on a pole. Sin was being judged and punished while Christ offered up Himself. He was the High Priest as well as the Ultimate Sacrifice. He voluntarily laid down His life, and He then took it up again at His resurrection. But when He had finished His work of atonement, He cried victoriously "It is Finished" (which included the end of the Old Covenant).

 

[Athanasius377]

Our Lord made a perfect atoning sacrifice that was pleasing to God. But this notion that He was considered by God to somehow be literally guilty of our sins and then punished accordingly is simply not true.

I was a little surprised by your statement. How would you interpret this from the CCC? Is there something I am missing? Is the issue bore our sins interpreted as Christ being literally guilty?



Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience

615 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin,” when “he bore the sin of many,” and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous,” for “he shall bear their iniquities.” Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.445 (1850; 433; 411)


Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 160). Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference.