Peanut Gallery 'Is the Catholic gospel the same that Jesus and his Disciples preached

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Formal debate Is the Catholic gospel the same that Jesus and his Disciples preached?

Can be found here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7808868/

 

[SMA12]

Is the Catholic gospel the same that He and His disciples preached?

Short answer:Yes
Long answer: Heck yes

Do I win????

Hehe interested to see this one!

 

[ebia]

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[Genersis]

I'm not even sure most Catholics would agree with that.

Maybe saying something like "the gospel has evolved over the centuries, from the continued wisdom bestowed upon his Church."

Will sub to see where it goes...

 

[poolerboy0077]

I think it's hard to tell what he did and didn't preach considering that we don't really have originals of the Gospels but only copies of copies written centuries later. Even the original gospels got written decades after their supposed occurrence.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The opening post by TheyCallMeDavid is now up!
http://www.christianforums.com/users/330789/

 

[ebia]

As I anticipated, there's no mention anywhere in it to anything that would constitute an evangelion - a gospel.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Second post is up.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Third post is up.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

4th post is up.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

TheyCallMeDavid 's final post is up.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Both closing posts are now up.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Thanks again to Anathasia for the formal debate he participated in with me. Sadly, in order to justify the Catholic position , he had to take so many Bible passages completely out of context . For instance, the Phil. 2 passage of 'working our salvation with fear and trembling' hasn't a thing to do with doing good works to eventually obtain eternal salvation...but the context is on the disunity that was occurring in the Phillipian Church if he were to read the previous 3 paragraphs . Paul is admonishing them to work out their differences based on their Christian Walk which already had them saved . The James 2 passage on faith plus doing good works for salvation is yet another twist of scripture, for, James isn't saying both are required to be saved..but rather the evidence for having been saved will result on a changed Born Again spirit to do good works and service to God and Others ; Paul in the book of Romans already made it clear that we are saved and justified by Faith alone ..so the only way to not have these two passages contradict each other is the way which I have described it . It is further confirmed in Eph. 2:8-10 that One is saved by having faith without applying good works to the equation. Good works are to come after being saved .

Further, Justification wasn't completed on the cross per my Opponents confession and it requires the Person to finish the job. Sadly, the Bible says that we ARE completely totally justified in Gods Eyes if we genuinely received Christs finished calvary merits unto ourselves for the forgiveness of all sins . It is a travesty to demonstrate by trying to finish the job of justification thru being 'a good Catholic' because it means that Christ didn't go all the way to get us justified. Additionally, Christ failed to take care of ALL our sins since we need a fanciful 'purgatory' to purge us of so called 'major sins' after dying ; no Sir.....Christ did the job in totality meaning EVERY sin ever committed . Further, this excuse that was given that dead Catholics can deposit their good works into a common Treasury Pot for the living Catholic to take out , is all a fallacy and futher whittles away at the sufficiency of Christs atonement and the Gospel itself ; my Opponent would have us believe that its like ' the deceased Catholics are encouraging us or spurring us along in our Christian walk including salvation' ...but the CCC1477 passage explicitly says that its going to actually finish or complete what is allegedly necessary to be (eventually) saved so entrance to heaven can be had -- thus, its a transfer of ones stored up good works to be added TO the salvation of a different Person ...something that serves to nullify the Gospel which is only based on Christ alone for salvation. Lastly, we are told that it was Christ who instituted all these sacraments so the Participant can get more and more salvation graces added to his account ; it requires scripture twisting for this to be true , for, Christ only gave us the sacrament of Communion and Baptism and both always followed the salvation experience . Salvation, which IS the Gospel, is solely encompassed in Christ alone : his death, burial, and resurrection just as Paul said in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 . That disqualifies the water of a Baptism / the reenactment of the Mass / Purgatory to clean up ones leftover major sins after death / the salvation efficacy of the Eucharist participation / and it renders all the other sacraments and rituals unnecessary to partake in because none of them has any salvific value in the least.

The biggest difference between the BIble and Catholicism concerning salvation (The Gospel that saves one of his sins) is that Salvation is an instantaneous event received by simply believing in the merits of Christs atoning sacrifice for us just as 1 John 5:13 and John 5:24 says so....and NOT the never ending earthly daily pursuit of trying to get more n more additional salvation graces thru the Person doing things to get them dispensed . They are not from or of Christ , because the Gospel that saves is ONLY about the death, burial, and resurrection of The Savior . A person striving to make himself more suitable for heaven is missing what the true Gospel is : The true Gospel that eternally saves is a free undeserved gift from God and all a Reciever can do is accept it and have it lavished on him ; that too is the substance of the true Gospel because the Gospel is all about Christ alone . And youre justified in Gods eyes by Christs resurrection alone. That's why in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 describes the complete Gospel of Christ dying, Christ getting buried, and Christ rising from the dead. Theres no justification left to finish., and certainly not by a Persons faithful attempts .

My Opponent has diligently tried to justify the Catholic view of the gospel thru much flowery language , completely misinterpreting scripture to build his case, etc... but in the final analysis the true Gospel remains unchanged and sadly is added to . Its sad because it leaves the Catholic having personal pride that he/she do something to help his own salvation cause , which is not possible according to Gods Plan of the Gospel of Christ . So, please Readers....make sure you are trusting ONLY in the finished work of Christ and never strive to add one iota of personal effort toward it. For , that is not of Christ --- Christ offers you salvation based on what He himself came to fully accomplish and for you to receive unto yourself instantaneously and once making it a completed covenant contract . Do that today, then relax in the fullness of that finished salvation by feeling and demonstrating great thankfulness and as a result, let God work in you to do many wonderful works and deeds as evidence that youre receiving of Jesus was sincere. Don't make the mistake of going the Catholic way which preaches a different Gospel ; a 'gospel' which the Apostle Paul said in Galatians 1 cannot save and is evil because it keeps people away from a safe eternity as God wants for all.

We all have a scheduled meeting with God right after this life ; please don't believe you can bring a personal Portfolio showing your many attempts to justify why God should see you differently / your list of attended sacraments / your list of taking others good deeds and applying them to your account / your collection of indulgences attained / your regulary attempts at expiating personal sins thru penances / and showing how many times you prayed using Marys beads so she must let you in to heaven. All these will fail and will be burned up as chaff -------- ONLY if you trusted in what Christ DID will count and if you go to heaven it will be because of HIM and not YOUR contributions.

 

[ebia]

I believe the Catholic position is that Tradition and Dogma may has evolved over the centuries. The Gospel has not.

The gospel - Jesus Christ is risen and is lord - doesn't change.

Theology and dogma - the attempts to understand the gospel and and everything that goes with it and follows from it - of course must change.

Even the way the gospel is expressed can legitimately change.

 

[Athanasias]

Well Here we are folks. It seems David has once again ignored a mountain of biblical evidence and the official documents of the Catholic Church he has again and again been corrected on. He obviously does not read all I posted on this.

Phil. 2 passage of 'working our salvation with fear and trembling' hasn't a thing to do with doing good works to eventually obtain eternal salvation...but the context is on the disunity that was occurring in the Phillipian Church if he were to read the previous 3 paragraphs . Paul is admonishing them to work out their differences based on their Christian Walk which already had them saved . .

I truly do not think David understands this passage. It certainly is in the context of disunity but read it all. As I showed Phil 2:12-13 shows one that salvation is not just a thing of the past(as David believes) but also salvation has a “present tense” to it ie.. it s a thing that needs to be “worked out” continually in many ways with fear and trembling. That’s just what St. Paul says! So if you have a problem with that then your problem is with St. Paul not me. Why Fear and Trembling? Because it can be lost! Just read the rest of the passage as I will quote:

“Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. (Phil 2:14-16)

St. Paul uses language like this all over the NT. A Saved Christian must work out his salvation because it can be lost. In fact in speaking about the Gospel itself Paul says elsewhere:

“Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast -- unless you believed in vain. “(1 Cor 15:1-2)

The James 2 passage on faith plus doing good works for salvation is yet another twist of scripture, for, James isn't saying both are required to be saved..but rather the evidence for having been saved will result on a changed Born Again spirit to do good works and service to God and Others ; .

Actually no David that is not what he is saying. I understand this verse gives a lot of non-Catholics a headache and I can see why. That is because it’s the only verse in the entire New Testament that says that uses the phrase “faith alone”. Notice no where else in the entire bible does the phrase faith alone ever come up. It only comes up in James. Go ahead look. And when it does come up in James it says we are justified by works and not by faith alone! Then it gives examples of Rahab and Abraham being justified by works!

Its clear that James and Paul are talking about 2 different kinds of faith. James when he speak of faith means intellectual assent alone(even the demons have that) and Paul means intellectual assent, trust, and love(which is a verb). Pope Benedict even said if Luther meant what Paul meant by faith in Gal 5:6 that we are justified by a “Faith working through love” then Catholics agree. But that faith has to work through acts of love to be justifying as Gal 5:6 and James 2 and as Jesus himself shows in many passages such as (Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5:28-30, Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12, Gal 6:6-10, 2 Cor 5:10, Col 3-23-24). We cannot just ignore all those passages we do not want to deal with. We need to harmonize them.

Paul in the book of Romans already made it clear that we are saved and justified by Faith alone ..so the only way to not have these two passages contradict each other is the way which I have described it . It is further confirmed in Eph. 2:8-10 that One is saved by having faith without applying good works to the equation. Good works are to come after being saved . .

Where does Paul ever use the term Faith Alone in Romans? Can you show me? He talks about faith apart from Mosaic “law” but never used the term “faith alone”. We agree that man is not justified by mosaic law but by Christ and his grace. Paul also talks about man’s participation in his own salvation and how his good works merit(are rewarded with) eternal life one chapter earlier(Roman 2:5-9). This is another hard passage for non-Catholics to deal with because its so clear. Its clear Paul is making a distinction between man good works done in grace through faith that do merit eternal life in Romans 2:5-9 and works of the mosaic “law” like circumcision(Rom 3:30, Gal 2:12. Gal 5:6) which do not justify ever(especially since Baptism replaces the old covenant of circumcision Col 2:11-13)

Further, Justification wasn't completed on the cross per my Opponents confession and it requires the Person to finish the job. Sadly, the Bible says that we ARE completely totally justified in Gods Eyes if we genuinely received Christs finished calvary merits unto ourselves for the forgiveness of all sins . It is a travesty to demonstrate by trying to finish the job of justification thru being 'a good Catholic' because it means that Christ didn't go all the way to get us justified. .

What? When did I ever use the phrase “being a good Catholic”? Where did you pull that out of? Your problem is that you do not understand that a Christian man can be justified initially and freely by Gods grace(Eph 2) and then loose his justification by freely committing mortal sin(1 Jn 5:16-17) which are sins that can send Christians believers to hell(see Jesus and St. Paul in Matt 5 :27-30, Gal 5 19:21). Then a man can using his own will by the grace of God calling him and repent and confess and then be re-justified(1 Jn 1:8-9).

All one has to do is read the parable of the prodigal son(LK 15:11-32) and one can see this is why Christ gave the Church the sacrament of confession and His priest the power to forgive sins in his name(Jn 20:21-24). The prodigal son shows us the Son of the Father left his dads house of his own free will and committed serious sin and became dead to the father then repented and confessed and became alive to the father again and back in his household (Lk 11: 24).

Additionally, Christ failed to take care of ALL our sins since we need a fanciful 'purgatory' to purge us of so called 'major sins' after dying ; no Sir.....Christ did the job in totality meaning EVERY sin ever committed . .

Christ never failed to take care of all of our sins. Calvary did that. Catholics admit that. Again read the Pope Encyclical on the Redeemer of Man. Your big problem is seeing how Christ sanctifies man. Its not a either or position; either purgatory or Christ. Its purgatory because purgatory is how Christ applies the graces he won for us at the cross on Calvary when we die if we need to be cleaned up because nothing impure will enter heaven(Rev 21:27) but most of us are still sinning and impure by the time we die . Also purgatory does not cleanse us of major sins or mortal sins, major sins will send someone to hell if they do not repent and confess. So I do not know where you made that up from. Pugatory is Christ and the Holy Spirit purifying us as by a holy fire from our worldly attachment and (venial smaller sins) so we can enter the glories of heaven. St. Paul talks about this in 1 Cor 3:15.

Further, this excuse that was given that dead Catholics can deposit their good works into a common Treasury Pot for the living Catholic to take out , is all a fallacy and futher whittles away at the sufficiency of Christs atonement and the Gospel itself ; my Opponent would have us believe that its like ' the deceased Catholics are encouraging us or spurring us along in our Christian walk including salvation' ...but the CCC1477 passage explicitly says that its going to actually finish or complete what is allegedly necessary to be (eventually) saved so entrance to heaven can be had -- thus, its a transfer of ones stored up good works to be added TO the salvation of a different Person ...something that serves to nullify the Gospel which is only based on Christ alone for salvation. .

Here is where you just ignored the context of the Catechism and shame on you! Even After I showed you this you continued to lie bold faced about it. Try quoting the passage preceding 1477 and see what it says:

It says this: ““We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."(CCC 1476)

Lastly, we are told that it was Christ who instituted all these sacraments so the Participant can get more and more salvation graces added to his account ; it requires scripture twisting for this to be true , for, Christ only gave us the sacrament of Communion and Baptism and both always followed the salvation experience . .

And the Christ gave us the Sacrament of confession(Jn 20:21-23) and the sacrament of the anointing of the sick(Mark 6:13, James 5:13-15), and Marriage(Eph 5:32) etc etc. but you just get out the black marker and go to town erasing all the sacraments you do not want to read.

Salvation, which IS the Gospel, is solely encompassed in Christ alone : his death, burial, and resurrection just as Paul said in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 . That disqualifies the water of a Baptism.

It does?? How is that? That would be very different news to Jesus, St. Peter, and St. Paul. You may want to read how it’s the sacrament of Baptism itself that Christ uses to apply his death, burial and resurrection and thus Salvation. How about reading (Romans 6:1-12 and 1 Peter 3:19-21) which say exactly that. Or do you want to amputate more scripture to suit your Jack Chick dogma.

the reenactment of the Mass.

The Mass is a participation in the Cross(1 Cor 10:16-21) that actually forgives sins(Matt 26:28).

Purgatory to clean up ones leftover major sins after death .

Again not major sins but yes minor sins( 1 Cor 3:15).

the salvation efficacy of the Eucharist participation.

Yes and again because the Eucharist is a real participation in Calvary itself(1 Cor 10:16-22) which did and does save us.

and it renders all the other sacraments and rituals unnecessary to partake in because none of them has any salvific value in the least. .

What?? How? Just as the Israelites had to actually partake of the actual sacrifice of the Lamb and eat its real flesh to have the angel of death Passover them(Ex 12:8) ie they had to eat the Passover sacrifice and could not eat a mere symbol of the lamb so to Christ the new Passover Lamb( Jn 1:29) told us we must participate in his sacrifice by eating his flesh and drinking his blood to have life in us(Jn 6:54-58). Christ also gave his apostles the power to forgive sins and anoint which has power to save and forgive sins(Jn 20:21-23, James 5:13-15). Why do that if they were already saved and could not loose it. Jesus also gave us Baptism which now SAVES US according to Peter( 1 Peter 3:19-21). No the Cross does not eliminate the salvific value of the sacraments. Rather the Sacraments are given by Jesus Christ to be the present application of the Cross to us in time and Space and bring us to salvation in Him!

The biggest difference between the BIble and Catholicism concerning salvation (The Gospel that saves one of his sins) is that Salvation is an instantaneous event received by simply believing in the merits of Christs atoning sacrifice for us just as 1 John 5:13 and John 5:24 says so....and NOT the never ending earthly daily pursuit of trying to get more n more additional salvation graces thru the Person doing things to get them dispensed . They are not from or of Christ , because the Gospel that saves is ONLY about the death, burial, and resurrection of The Savior .

No the biggest difference between protestant fundamentalism and bible Catholic Christianity is that Catholics see the greater picture in scripture and history that Christ applies his Paschal mystery to us in time and space via the sacraments and faith and that man can fall from grace(Gal 5:4) and repent and return to God by his grace and sacraments and be re-justified( Lk 15 11-32, Jn 1:8-9).

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A person striving to make himself more suitable for heaven is missing what the true Gospel is : .

Is He? What does the bible say? “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. “(Heb 12:14)


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Don't make the mistake of going the Catholic way which preaches a different Gospel ; a 'gospel' which the Apostle Paul said in Galatians 1 cannot save and is evil because it keeps people away from a safe eternity as God wants for all. .

Can you show me anywhere that Paul mentions the Catholic Church in the book of Galatians??? I will give you 1000 dollars if you can show that Paul ever says the Catholic Church. He is clearly talking about the Judiazers heresy that rocked the early Church. Nearly all bible scholars agree on that. Its sad how you hate Christ Jesus Catholic Church and disagree with her when you do not even know nor want to actually know what Christ Catholic Church actually teaches from her own teachings. You just hate a Jack chick Caricature of the Catholic Church and lie and not real authentic Catholicism. That’s just sad.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

MOD HAT...

This thread, like the Formal Debate has run it's course. It is now closed.

Thanks

Mark
Staff Supervisor