peaceful soul: good and evil; chaos or order

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rhyddid_rose

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originally posted by rhyddid_rose

Duly noted! You are correct in that whenever people get together, they will almost always be some kind of disagreement. That's basic human ego at work, LOL!
Ego is part of it, but where does this ego come from is a greater question. I believe that I know that answer. It is call sin--spiritual ineptness of God's fallen creation. I know that you don't believe that, but that is OK.

I dont agree that all man's problems are due to 'sin'. I dont believe in sin, because I dont believe I can offend the Eternal, the Source of Life, with my puny actions.


If God is indeed a perfect moral being, He will be offended, since you are not choosing to be perfect in your humanity as I believe that He created you with. My premise is that God made man perfect/complete--without sin, as alluded to in the OT in Genesis. Consequently, we are to be perfect. To fall short of perfection, is to fall short of God's standards, which is the essence of what sin is. Failing to keep God's standards is not trivial, no more than it would be of any other kind of perfect standard, even in the world we live in. Just imagine a hospital allowing doctors to perform very delicate surgeries in a less-than clean enviornment. Wouldn't that offend you, especially if you were the patient? If you answer yes, then you can begin to understand how God views spiritual imperfection/sin.

I can and do offend other humans. Whenever I do that, I ask for forgiveness and attempt to make amends. I resolved not to repeat it and learn from my mistakes.


Yes, we can agree on that, I included offend, but why would we allow ourselves to offend in the first place if we could prevent it? That would seem rather silly to do something bad while knowing that we shouldn't do it. Why can't we prevent ourselves every time from doing it? Even more importantly, why would we even think of doing it? These are questions that make sense in context of sin. There is some cause and effect that is not completely dependent upon our wills. What explains it?

I believe in personal responsibility for one's actions and that there are consequences to your behaviours. I believe each one of us has to choose good or evil; chaos or order.


My question would be, "How do we know what good and evil are in order to choose them? What would make something evil or good? Who sets the bench mark whereby each person can agree on the same things as evil? Just as you see that there are consequences for our behaviours--physical/metaphysical, so are there spiritual laws that God imposed that also have consequences for our spiritual imperfect state--sin.

Of course, humans are imperfect. We aren't gods; we are mortal. We are dying from the minute we are born as entropy affects us as the rest of creation. That doesn't give us an excuse to NOT live an ethical and moral life.


Who sets the standards of what is ethical/moral? You? Others? or perhaps God? Exactly why should you try to be ethical and moral? If you say that it is a standard, then you must wonder why should you even care to attempt. Why not just live as you please?

The fact is that even on our best day (choose 1 that you think is your best), we are still imperfect beings. There is nothing on your own that you can do to change that even if you dedicate your entire day to postive thinking and purposely attempting to do what is right in your mind.

Peaceful Soul, I'm not a Christian; my path is Asatru. I dont follow Jesus nor the bible, but I understand what you're saying. I also believe that humans have a spiritual dimension and when that is understood and fulfilled, it makes for a better person.


I believe that I understand what you are saying as well. I agree that if we understood our spiritual nature ( I don't know if I would call it a dimension), we would make us better. The problem that i have with that is that being better is still not the same as being perfect as I believe God made man at his creation.

PS: I still believe that monotheism is illogical, no offence meant. ;)


Hail the Aesir; Hail the Vanir,

Rhyddid Rose Rhys
In what ways is it illogical? Just curious.

I know that you will have responses to my post, I expect you to post them; but, after your post, we can discuss this either in a new thread or by PM, that is, only if you would like. I don't want to go any further off topic in this thread than we already have.

Thank you for your input and insight. I appreciate it very much.:thumbsup:
 

rhyddid_rose

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peaceful soul said:
If God is indeed a perfect moral being, He will be offended, since you are not choosing to be perfect in your humanity as I believe that He created you with. My premise is that God made man perfect/complete--without sin, as alluded to in the OT in Genesis. Consequently, we are to be perfect. To fall short of perfection, is to fall short of God's standards, which is the essence of what sin is. Failing to keep God's standards is not trivial, no more than it would be of any other kind of perfect standard, even in the world we live in. Just imagine a hospital allowing doctors to perform very delicate surgeries in a less-than clean enviornment. Wouldn't that offend you, especially if you were the patient? If you answer yes, then you can begin to understand how God views spiritual imperfection/sin.

I dont believe God made us to be perfect. If we were all perfect, we would be the most boring creatures in the Universe. We couldnt grow; we couldn't reach out to learn and improve ourselves. Perfection is an illusion; it doesn't exist among mortal creatures. I can not be perfect in my humanity, because the meaning of humanity is imperfection. My imperfections make me 'me'. They make me unique among billions. My imperfections give me something to overcome; a challenge to conquer.

I cant believe God demands us to be something which he didn't create us to be. I dont believe that the Eternal can be offended, because the Eternal doesn't have emotions. The Eternal, the Source of Life, is energy. Omnipresent and within and beyond this Universe and our understanding. I accept my imperfections and my lack of understanding the structure of the Universe. No big thing, really. I'm human. :)

What are Gods's standards? I believe groups of people have standards in order to live among each other. They came to be through trial and error and common sense. Our earliest ancestors knew that stealing was wrong; it disrespects the owners of objects which aren't yours. Killing is wrong-the misery and heartache murder produces is such that most people do not wish to produce and or experience it. Does God need morals and ethics? In my opinion, no. People are social animals and we need laws and rules. Even lion prides and wolf packs have rules; people are no different.

Yes a nasty hospital would offend me to the point I would report them to the authorities and/or never go there. Bad analogy there.


Hail Heimdall,


Rhyddid Rose Rhys
 
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peaceful soul said:
Who sets the standards of what is ethical/moral? You? Others? or perhaps God? Exactly why should you try to be ethical and moral? If you say that it is a standard, then you must wonder why should you even care to attempt. Why not just live as you please?

The fact is that even on our best day (choose 1 that you think is your best), we are still imperfect beings. There is nothing on your own that you can do to change that even if you dedicate your entire day to postive thinking and purposely attempting to do what is right in your mind.

I believe our earliest ancestors set the standard of what is ethical/moral. I want to be ethical and moral because I want to do the right thing and not 'disturb the peace' anymore than it already is. I joined Asatru mainly because of the morals and ethics of the religion. I didn't want to live a life of a person without a moral compass. I've been (un)fortunate to live among people who dont give a damn about others and how their actions affect those around them. I saw this and I said to myself that I wouldn't do this. I dont want to go out of my way to hurt people. I've been on the receiving end of that too many times too count and I dont want to ever do that to someone else. I wish to uphold and live in 'frith', a term in Asatru meaning peace and stability.


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Rhyddid Rose Rhys

 
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peaceful soul

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originally posted by rhyddid

I dont believe God made us to be perfect.


If God is a perfect and moral being. I am not sure if you accept this premise or not, but if we work off if it, we should expect perfection in everything that he wills in a similar manner that his creation, man, tries to create perfect things. How many people strive to make an inadequate piece of art, car, software, etc.? People try to make things perfect because perfection is their standard. Where did they get this from? God, because according to Genesis, God made man in His own image. That means that we have a similar capacity to do things just like God in areas such as reasoning, thinking, creating, morality, etc. It is no accident that we strive to be like God, even in our imperfect state. God put this in our makeup when He created us. Also in Genesis, God said that all that he made was good/ perfect. Adam was created without imperfection, but with free will, which gave him the capacity to do wrong.

If we were all perfect, we would be the most boring creatures in the Universe. We couldnt grow; we couldn't reach out to learn and improve ourselves.
That is assuming that a perfect being would have the same characteristics as an imperfect one. You are basically transferring all attributes of one onto the other without realizing that there is a difference. In Genesis, God also shows that once Adam chose against God, his spiritual state changed and he lost his intimate relationship with God. Man started to deteriorate spiritually and physically, and that is why we are in the state that we are in right now.

Being perfect would not be boring since our spiritual identity would be without the limitations that we have due to man's fall from the Grace of God. W see things the way we do because we are presently incapable of imagining or understanding what perfection is. It is like trying to understand a 4th dimension while living in 3rd dimensional world. You cannot fathom what the 4th dimension is about. You can only speculate.


Perfection is an illusion; it doesn't exist among mortal creatures.
Of course you believe this because you have no concept of perfection in terms of what the Bible shows. You are only transferring your imperfect rationale of your imperfect spiritual nature into how you expect to see things. Again, your assumption is that there is no difference between a perfect spiritual being and an imperfect one. At least according to the Bible, that is not true.

I can not be perfect in my humanity, because the meaning of humanity is imperfection.
From my perspective, this is a false construct. What would be a better thing is to say that fallen humanity is imperfection.

My imperfections make me 'me'.
Generally speaking, I will agree, but not according to God's original purpose and not according to the perfect state that he created us in.

They make me unique among billions.
God created you unique regardless of what state you are in. That is irrelevant.

My imperfections give me something to overcome; a challenge to conquer.
But is due to your imperfections that you have to worry about this in the first place. If man didn't choose to disobey God, we would not have incurred death, sin, deterioration, etc. The fall of man produced a multitude of consequences for this world--both physically and spiritually. God did not mean for us to struggle. That was not what God's plan for us. You can't comprehend the concept of perfection and growth in the same frame.

I cant believe God demands us to be something which he didn't create us to be.
This is the antithesis of what the Bible states as I have indicated above.

I dont believe that the Eternal can be offended, because the Eternal doesn't have emotions.
The Bible says otherwise. I should caution you that our imperfect way of understanding emotions will lead us to comprehend God's qualities in a humanistic way. That is the danger we run into if we don't distinguish the two.

Again, using my premise as derived from the Bible: God, being perfect, expects nothing short of that. Consequently, anything short of that is to be judged as substandard. Let's look at a human example: If your standards are "treat me in kindness" and someone treated you in unkindness, would you consider that below your standard? Would you on some occasions be offended by how you were being treated. In a similar respect, God does the same. But this is not something God takes lightly since He is perfectly moral.


The Eternal, the Source of Life, is energy. Omnipresent and within and beyond this Universe and our understanding. I accept my imperfections and my lack of understanding the structure of the Universe. No big thing, really. I'm human. :)
The reality is that we all have to accept to a certain point, the condition that we are in. I suppose that if you don't accept my premise, this seems logical. But, what made you "human"? What made you a failure to seek perfection or hold your set of personal standards?

What are Gods's standards?
They are summed up in the Ten Commandments.

I believe groups of people have standards in order to live among each other.
That is a fair assumption.

They came to be through trial and error and common sense. Our earliest ancestors knew that stealing was wrong;
How do you think that they knew not to steal?

it disrespects the owners of objects which aren't yours.
Certainly! I am with you so far.

Killing is wrong-the misery and heartache murder produces is such that most people do not wish to produce and or experience it.
That would be a humanistic way of viewing murder, but the God given rule is stated in guess where, the Ten Commandments. Taking one's life without a moral reason is against God's will. That is subjected to the the other person not respecting the value of life that God gave to you.

Does God need morals and ethics? In my opinion, no.
It is not a matter of God needing anything since He doesn't; rather, it is who God is. Morality (perfect morality) is inherent to God. Since you are made in his image, you also inherit the capacity for morality, goodness, love, etc. We don't get these things out of thin are or by some random chance. God defined us that way.

People are social animals and we need laws and rules.
That is a very humanistic POV. We need laws because we are incapable of governing ourselves. Laws are needed because we are spiritually imperfect beings that consequently will do things to hurt others and to violate other's rights.

Even lion prides and wolf packs have rules; people are no different.

The have rules because the are created with certain instincts that guide them to behave the way they do. They can't form packs like humans can when they go to a party or a concert. We think out these things. They don't?

Yes a nasty hospital would offend me to the point I would report them to the authorities and/or never go there. Bad analogy there.

Hail Heimdall,


Rhyddid Rose Rhys


Who is the authority that you look to report this to? Where did they get their standards from? From their perspective, would you think that they would see this as sub par? Imperfect from their standards?

I hope to hear from you soon,
rhyddid.
 
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rhyddid_rose

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Peaceful soul, you have some rather unusual ideas about the Eternal. I would like to know where and how did you develop these. Did you get all this from your religion, the Bible or spiritual/life experiences? I dont understand this focus on perfection, a state which, in my opinion, does not exist. You remind me of the logic and sudoku puzzles I do for brain exercise; I have to think hard before I answer you, LOL!

For me, the Eternal is pure energy. The Eternal is within and beyond the Universe. I do not, ummmm, what's that word again? *thinking*

ah anthromorphise????

Ummm, I dont try to give the Eternal human attributes because for me energy doesn't have morality and emotions. The Eternal is above and beyond our comprehension.

The Deities are another thing entirely. I believe they exist as a way to relate to the Eternal. This may seem odd to you, but as a polytheist, I believe in a kind of spiritual pyramid, with the Eternal at the apex, then the deities, then landwrights, nature spirits, .......on down to humans, animals and plants.

As I stated earlier, I'm not a Christian. I do not believe in the Bible, so it is hard (but i'm trying, gods help me) to understand where you are coming from. That's one of the reasons why it takes me a while to answer you. Trying to understand and answer you without sounding weird or condescending or silly. It's like I'm speaking in Cymraeg and you're speaking in English when it comes to our God concepts and worldview.


But is due to your imperfections that you have to worry about this in the first place. If man didn't choose to disobey God, we would not have incurred death, sin, deterioration, etc. The fall of man produced a multitude of consequences for this world--both physically and spiritually. God did not mean for us to struggle. That was not what God's plan for us. You can't comprehend the concept of perfection and growth in the same frame.

On the contrary, I believe that man has to struggle. Life is a battle for survival. Without struggle, man deteriorates. He become weak and complacent. We weren't meant for a paradise. We were meant to claw and fight our way through. We learn from our mistakes; we learn from observation of Nature. We have to deal with the way things ARE and not the way we THINK they ought to be. The battle between good and evil, order and chaos, is a fact of life. If God's plan was perfection, how could his plans be derailed by a mere human?

The Bible says otherwise. I should caution you that our imperfect way of understanding emotions will lead us to comprehend God's qualities in a humanistic way. That is the danger we run into if we don't distinguish the two.

I had to look up the meaning of humanistic. I must be tired this afternoon, because the definition didnt help. I'm going to assume by humanistic you mean someone who doesn't use the Bible as a standard for understanding the world and spirituality. Correct me if i'm wrong. My standards for understanding is observation, trial and error, experience of myself and others wiser and older than me and a bit of (un)common sense. Actually, I dont believe I comprehend nor understand the Eternal, since the Eternal is above and beyond any human.

Again, using my premise as derived from the Bible: God, being perfect, expects nothing short of that. Consequently, anything short of that is to be judged as substandard. Let's look at a human example: If your standards are "treat me in kindness" and someone treated you in unkindness, would you consider that below your standard? Would you on some occasions be offended by how you were being treated. In a similar respect, God does the same. But this is not something God takes lightly since He is perfectly moral.

If someone is unkind to me, I would have to consider the context and who the person is. I do have standards, but I dont expect everyone I meet to uphold the Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru. Again, you're assuming that God, the Eternal, can be insulted and has (human) feelings and emotions.

The reality is that we all have to accept to a certain point, the condition that we are in. I suppose that if you don't accept my premise, this seems logical. But, what made you "human"? What made you a failure to seek perfection or hold your set of personal standards?

I accept my human imperfections and I deal with them. I do not understand nor accept your premise. I am human because my parents were, and their parents and my ancestors all the way from the beginning were. I hold my set of personal standards because they make sense to me and they work for me. I made a choice to uphold good and order.

That would be a humanistic way of viewing murder, but the God given rule is stated in guess where, the Ten Commandments. Taking one's life without a moral reason is against God's will. That is subjected to the the other person not respecting the value of life that God gave to you.


Peaceful soul, I do not believe that the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Tenach are the words of the Eternal. I believe they were written by men. The Eternal is above and beyond any human created book. God is revealed, for me, through Nature. I do not believe murder is wrong because it is against God's 'will', I believe it is wrong because it is obviously so. I've seen what murder does to people and families. It causes chaos and lawlessness to increase and breaks frith or peace and security between people. I dont know God's will, but I do know pain, anger and fear. Most people want to avoid those things and live in peace and order. Outlaws who murder should be punished.

Who is the authority that you look to report this (the nasty hospital) to? Where did they get their standards from? From their perspective, would you think that they would see this as sub par? Imperfect from their standards?

I hope to hear from you soon,
rhyddid.

i'll get back with you on who I would actually report this to. Probably some kind of hospital commission in Cardiff.................They got their standards from experience, trial and error (in the past), and the observations from doctors and others from centuries ago. Cleanliness is a must in hospital; nastiness invites infection, death, prison and lawsuits.


Faith, Folk and Family,

Rhyddid Rose Rhys
 
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peaceful soul

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originally posted by rhyddid_rose

[FONT=&quot]Peaceful soul, you have some rather unusual ideas about the Eternal. I would like to know where and how did you develop these.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
I really didn't develop them as much as I understood them without necessarily trying to understand them. I realize that what I just said may not make sense. I can try to explain it if necessary.
[FONT=&quot]
Did you get all this from your religion, the Bible or spiritual/life experiences?
[/FONT]
I read them in the Bible which unfolds my spiritual life. I don't really like the word 'religion'. It denotes some kind of ritualistic attempt to know God. That is far from the truth for authentic Christians. If you want to call the Ten Commandments a religious practice, then I guess I am religious. My understanding of the Bible shows me that if you are a perfect person, you would not have a problem with following the Commandments. It would not be a chore or burden. It would be a natural thing to do. Imperfect beings, especially those without God's guidance, will see this as a burden and will try to create or follow formulas (religions) to create an illusion that they are not adequate before God.[FONT=&quot]

I dont understand this focus on perfection, a state which, in my opinion, does not exist. You remind me of the logic and sudoku puzzles I do for brain exercise; I have to think hard before I answer you, LOL!
[/FONT]
The focus is on perfection because that is what God is by Biblical definition. This is not just a saying; it is experienced and understood in one's spiritual and intellectual realms. We can discern it through our spirit as we read and study the Bible as well as intellectualize in when we understand concepts of the Bible and while experiencing many things in life.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
As I stated earlier, God does not make imperfect things and then expects perfection from them. He starts out with perfection and doesn't lower His standards since He is perfect. That is why you can see that men strive to be perfect, even if they can't. God has instilled this capacity in us since we are made in His image. Everyone of us has a longing to be complete. That is why we keep trying various religious paths. All of us are looking for that completeness that God calls perfection. In the book of Genesis, when God called His creation 'good', He meant that everything that he had made was good/complete--not lacking anything and in any way.

From what I can tell, the reason that you don't believe in perfection is because you don't have a foundation of what it means and an understanding of what it implies, at least in a Biblical context. I look at your inability to believe in perfection is like claiming that happiness doesn't exist since you have never attained it.[FONT=&quot]

For me, the Eternal is pure energy. The Eternal is within and beyond the Universe. I do not, ummmm, what's that word again? *thinking*

ah anthromorphise????
[/FONT]
I can understand that to a point. We all tend to associate with things that we grew up believing or accepting; so, it is natural that you will see things differently than many others.

You look at God as some entity/force rather than a being with persona--not human persona. God has persona and since we are made in His image, we also have persona. God has will and purpose. He is not abstract, unknowable, and impersonal as I am beginning to think that you may believe.
[FONT=&quot]
Ummm, I dont try to give the Eternal human attributes because for me energy doesn't have morality and emotions. The Eternal is above and beyond our comprehension.
[/FONT]


Yes, this will definitely be our point of difference. We will be using the same term to mean quite different things. I suppose that we should keep this in mind when we type. God is definitive. If you believe that God is our creator, then it really lacks good reasoning the believe an non definitive creature can create something with purpose and will. Likeness begets likeness.

Now I realize what I think is what you are thinking. You are associating human qualities with God, but it is the other way around. The qualities are given to humans by God via the Bible and we simply use these in our limited understanding as the best measure to describe ourselves and God while keeping in mind that God has persona as seen in the Bible. Of course, this is my perspective; but it makes sense why you have a problem with seeing it from my perspective.

[FONT=&quot]
The Deities are another thing entirely. I believe they exist as a way to relate to the Eternal. This may seem odd to you, but as a polytheist, I believe in a kind of spiritual pyramid, with the Eternal at the apex, then the deities, then landwrights, nature spirits, .......on down to humans, animals and plants.
[/FONT]


Could you please explain Eternal? It is important that understand your definitions while communicating with you. Afterwards, I will reply to this paragraph is necessary.
[FONT=&quot]
As I stated earlier, I'm not a Christian. I do not believe in the Bible, so it is hard (but i'm trying, gods help me) to understand where you are coming from. That's one of the reasons why it takes me a while to answer you. Trying to understand and answer you without sounding weird or condescending or silly. It's like I'm speaking in Cymraeg and you're speaking in English when it comes to our God concepts and worldview.
[/FONT]


All I ask is that you be real and not worry about trying to be perfect in your delivery. You will see my replies as sometimes ignorant in regards to how I see and understand your POV. Just correct me and I will correct you. Then we can go from there.

[FONT=&quot]
On the contrary, I believe that man has to struggle. Life is a battle for survival. Without struggle, man deteriorates. He become weak and complacent.
[/FONT]


That is a good observation. The question is why? I have the answer: sin. Genesis explains that. When man disobey God, he suffered the consequences of his disobedience/noncompliance with God's standards, resulting in his spiritual and physical deterioration. That is why God's perfect/complete creation became less than perfect/complete. The consequence of this fallen sated is the reality that we live with today. Since this is the only thing that you have experienced, you have logically reasoned that this is the best that it can be or could have been. Therefore, your standard is lower than what God created it to be.

[FONT=&quot]
We weren't meant for a paradise.
[/FONT]


How do you know that?

[FONT=&quot]
We were meant to claw and fight our way through. We learn from our mistakes; we learn from observation of Nature. We have to deal with the way things ARE and not the way we THINK they ought to be. The battle between good and evil, order and chaos, is a fact of life.
[/FONT]



Why do you think that we are meant to claw and fight? That means that we were purposed to be imperfect and with a nature to harm each other. I can't agree with that. The rest of what you say is just ordinary observations that we an make; but they result not because of the intended purpose and order that God gave. Rebellion against God creates these problems and characteristics.

[FONT=&quot]
If God's plan was perfection, how could his plans be derailed by a mere human?
[/FONT]


God's plans don't get derailed. God is wise, omnipotent and omniscient. Easy. Man fell from God's grace. He chose to lower himself to a lower spiritual state, thus he suffered the consequences of his actions. A perfect God cannot allow disobedience and not give consequences for that disobedience.

God's plans don't get derailed. God knows all and knows how to deal with what is to come before it even happens. He is never surprised and caught off guard. Although humans have failed, God already has that covered too.

[FONT=&quot]
I had to look up the meaning of humanistic. I must be tired this afternoon, because the definition didnt help. I'm going to assume by humanistic you mean someone who doesn't use the Bible as a standard for understanding the world and spirituality. Correct me if i'm wrong.
[/FONT]


That is not entirely correct, but close enough for discussion. I am thinking in terms of using human reasoning and not accounting for non human understanding to influence your thinking. In other words, you are looking inward for human explanations and understanding to base your judgments and conclusions on. And in your case, the Bible would be the tool that I would use to use to evaluate your view.

[FONT=&quot]
My standards for understanding is observation, trial and error, experience of myself and others wiser and older than me and a bit of (un)common sense.
[/FONT]


We all use this, but this only goes so far. How do we deal with what we don't know since I hope that you agree that we don't know everything?

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 
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peaceful soul

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originally posted by rhyddid_rose

Actually, I dont believe I comprehend nor understand the Eternal, since the Eternal is above and beyond any human.

That is quite fair to state. I would argue that there is no distinction between eternal and God. God by definition is eternal. All that encompasses eternal is not distinct from God, Himself. That is one reason that everything has purpose and is definitive. That is why we can't be relational to a ball of energy or 'the Eternal". If human has purpose, it reasons from my perspective that our creator has purpose in giving us purpose. Likeness beget likeness.

If someone is unkind to me, I would have to consider the context and who the person is. I do have standards, but I dont expect everyone I meet to uphold the Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru.

Why wouldn't you want others to uphold your standards? It would seem to me that you value your standards as being righteous.

Again, you're assuming that God, the Eternal, can be insulted and has (human) feelings and emotions.

I did mention before that we have some attributes of God, but not godly attributes. We got them from God. I did previously mention our capacity to love, create, and be rational. None of these attributes are divine, but God's are. That separates Him from the human understanding of these same attributes He possesses. When we get insulted, it is not exactly the same as when God is insulted. He doesn't have the flawed nature that we have. When we are insulted, we often think to do evil and get revenge of some type. God does not behave in that way. When we love, we place limits on our love; but when God loves, he doesn't discriminate in His love. I am saying this to caution you for thinking of God's attributes as human, because they are not.

I accept my human imperfections and I deal with them. I do not understand nor accept your premise. I am human because my parents were, and their parents and my ancestors all the way from the beginning were.

Are you differentiating your humanity from your person?

I hold my set of personal standards because they make sense to me and they work for me.

That sounds like pragmatism.

I made a choice to uphold good and orde
How do you define "good"? And what is "order"?

Peaceful soul, I do not believe that the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Tenach are the words of the Eternal. I believe they were written by men.

That is interesting. What would their being written by men make a difference? Does that mean that they are wrong on that account? If you can be impartial, you will be able to confess that all beliefs are written by men unless God drops them down out of the sky and tells us this is directly from me and now you obey. God uses men to communicate with men. That makes sense. However imperfect they can be, He still uses them to achieve his purposes. God is aware of our shortcomings and can counter them and still get the job done. We can't prevent God from doing His will.

The Eternal is above and beyond any human created book.

Although we have different definitions of "Eternal", I can agree, but that does not prohibit the Eternal from using His creation to achieve His means. You should caution yourself from thinking of books written by the hands of men as not being form God. Most people who don't believe in God try to use this to dismiss the possibility that God may in fact use this method of communicating with his creation. If you are really honest, you will have to confess that your beliefs are written by man and should be scrutinized in the same fashion. Human thought in that case should never be trusted since men think and put what they thought into literature or speeches. There is nothing that we believe that doesn't come through the creation of humans--our senses. The only possible exception is through an act of God.

God is revealed, for me, through Nature.

God reveals Himself to everyone through His creation, whether it be nature, animals, or other humans.

I do not believe murder is wrong because it is against God's 'will', I believe it is wrong because it is obviously so.

Go tell that to a cannibal. His standards are far different than yours, but in his mind, he is righteous and you are not. The point is that is is not universally obvious to everyone. I think that I have asked you this before, but what determines if something is wrong. Obviously the cannibal doesn't agree with you. The point that I am approaching is that all of these concepts of wrong and even right are relative to the environment one lives in if there is no one standard that is imposed for everyone. That is where God comes into the picture.

I've seen what murder does to people and families. It causes chaos and lawlessness to increase and breaks frith or peace and security between people. I dont know God's will, but I do know pain, anger and fear. Most people want to avoid those things and live in peace and order. Outlaws who murder should be punished.
From the Biblical perspective, all lawbreakers should be punished, thus you and me too. In God's eyes, any infraction, whether it is a lie or something more severe as murder, is still an offense. In that perspective, we all are guilty of imperfection, but our judgment will be based upon our knowledge, understanding and intentions. In other words, the liar will most likely not be judged with the same harshness as the murderer; nevertheless, both will will suffer some consequences. Depending upon the liar's intentions, his actions can be just as grave as one who murders. It is sometimes presumptuous for humans to make judgments on murderers and then not take seriously the offenses of people that do what we see as trivial or lesser offenses to others and think of them as good people. Jesus teaches us that the thoughts are just as bad as the acts. You don't have to murder someone to have that type of hatred in your heart to want to or to plan to kill them but never follow through.

I am getting the feeling that you only think that harsh actions are extremely offensive and deserve punishment or at least an equally harsh punishment.

i'll get back with you on who I would actually report this to. Probably some kind of hospital commission in Cardiff.................They got their standards from experience, trial and error (in the past), and the observations from doctors and others from centuries ago. Cleanliness is a must in hospital; nastiness invites infection, death, prison and lawsuits.

Faith, Folk and Family,

Rhyddid Rose Rhys
The issue that I was raising was that whatever the standards were, they should be followed perfectly. To break any one of those standards is following short of those standards which should subject the offender to a penalty of some sort. In God's eyes, even if the infraction seems petty, it is still an infraction. God doesn't lower his standard because one offense is so petty that He should just pretend that it didn't happen and not charge an offense for the infraction. God is perfectly moral, integral and holy. God is complete. To lower His standard is to become less than perfect, which opposes the very definition of God. He is not longer just, integral and holy.
 
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rhyddid_rose

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Jan 24, 2005
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rhyddid said:
The Deities are another thing entirely. I believe they exist as a way to relate to the Eternal. This may seem odd to you, but as a polytheist, I believe in a kind of spiritual pyramid, with the Eternal at the apex, then the deities, then landwrights, nature spirits, .......on down to humans, animals and plants.
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peaceful soul said:
Could you please explain Eternal? It is important that understand your definitions while communicating with you. Afterwards, I will reply to this paragraph is necessary.

The Eternal is energy. It is within and beyond the Universe. The Eternal is not knowable by humans. The Eternal does not have emotions like humans. I dont attribute human emotions and weaknesses with the Eternal. The Eternal is the Force behind the existence of the Universe.

All I ask is that you be real and not worry about trying to be perfect in your delivery. You will see my replies as sometimes ignorant in regards to how I see and understand your POV. Just correct me and I will correct you. Then we can go from there.
You got it, mate :)

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rhyddid said:
We were meant to claw and fight our way through. We learn from our mistakes; we learn from observation of Nature. We have to deal with the way things ARE and not the way we THINK they ought to be. The battle between good and evil, order and chaos, is a fact of life.

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peaceful soul said:
Why do you think that we are meant to claw and fight? That means that we were purposed to be imperfect and with a nature to harm each other. I can't agree with that. The rest of what you say is just ordinary observations that we an make; but they result not because of the intended purpose and order that God gave. Rebellion against God creates these problems and characteristics.

Peaceful soul, my life experiences differ from yours. I have made other posts concerning about how I grew up. I shant get into it here, but let's say I know from experience and reality that people are meant to struggle for survival. There is no 'perfection'. If God meant for us to be perfect, we would be. Humans are predators, pure and simple. It's not politically correct, something which I despise, BTW; it's the truth. I dont see life and reality in a Biblical way and never shall.

peaceful soul said:
That is quite fair to state. I would argue that there is no distinction between eternal and God. God by definition is eternal. All that encompasses eternal is not distinct from God, Himself. That is one reason that everything has purpose and is definitive. That is why we can't be relational to a ball of energy or 'the Eternal". If human has purpose, it reasons from my perspective that our creator has purpose in giving us purpose. Likeness beget likeness.

I believe the Eternal=energy. You're right; humans can't relate to a 'ball of energy'. That is why the deities exist. The deities are a way which humans can attempt to understand the Eternal and the Universe. Why would God need a purpose? And what do you mean by likeness begat likeness? Humans are not divine; we aren't supernatural.

peaceful soul said:
Why wouldn't you want others to uphold your standards? It would seem to me that you value your standards as being righteous.

It would be nice if more people upheld the virtues of Courage, Truth, Honour, Faithfulness, Discipline, Hospitality, Hard-working, Self-reliance, and Perseverance. I'm still working on those virtues myself. Not everyone in the world shares my morals and virtues. I dont expect them to. I dont value my standards as being righteous; more like this is the correct way to live among people which will produce the least amount of strife. Asatruar try to live in frith, peace, among people whenever possible.

Are you differentiating your humanity from your person?
I do not understand this statement; please clarify.
rhyddid said:
I hold my set of personal standards because they make sense to me and they work for me.

peaceful soul said:
That sounds like pragmatism.

Aye! Asatru is very down to earth and practical! As I said before, Asatru stresses ACTION instead of BELIEF. It is one of the main reasons why I became an Asatruar.

I shall resume answering you after a break. Hope you are well and in a safe place.


Hail the Aesir; Hail the Vanir,

Rhyddid Rose Rhys


 
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