Peace Deal or Confirm a Covenant?
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Douggg
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Jesus did not confirm the old covenant. There was no reason for him to do that. The old covenant (the Mt. Sinai covenant) was never a covenant for eternal life. The covenant in Jesus is for eternal life.
Moses was the first to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant in a speech he gave to the people, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, saying that God gave the promised land as theirs forever. And Moses made it a law that for all future generations, the leaders of Israel, would do the same on a 7 year. cycle.
So it is the Mt. Sinai covenant in Daniel 9:27, that the person who becomes the Antichrist, by being anointed the King of Israel, will confirm, by a big speech on the temple mount. Has to be after Gog/Magog which the 7 years following the destruction of Gog's army in Ezekiel 39 is the same 7 years of Daniel 9.
Regardless if Trump, or whoever, were able to achieve any kind of peace accord between Jews and Muslims; it still would not be after Gog/Maogog. After Gog/Magog, Islam, will go the way Communism did.
Following Gog/Magog, the Jews at that point will believe they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety. Which is the by peace he destroys many in Daniel 8, and the 1thessalonians5 verses about when they think to say "peace and safety", sudden destruction will come.
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Do you think Jesus is the New Covenant Messiah found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24 ?
Why do you think the scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28?
Is Daniel 9 the timeline of the Messiah which came to fulfill the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34?
If the word "new" is not found in Hebrews 10:16-18, can it be referring to the New Covenant?
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Brian Mcnamee
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Actually, "confirm the covenant" would be best.
The whole chapter of Daniel 9 is one discourse where Daniel's prayer is immediately followed by Gabriel's prophecy. So...
When Gabriel mentions "the covenant", he should be talking about "the covenant" Daniel had mentioned.
Daniel 9:4... And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Daniel 9:27... And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
P.S.
Whereas most Futurists believe a currently not existing peace treaty will be established...
I believe Gabriel was saying that beginning with Jesus' baptism, the already existing Old Covenant would be "confirmed" (prevail, gabar in Hebrew) for another 7 years (a prophetic "week").
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LilShepherdBoy
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Brian Mcnamee
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Futurist also believe in the return of the daily temple sacrifices that in the middle of the week would need be stopped by the AC. The temple institute has replicated everything necessary to resume such sacrifices at the same time a movement to merge all the nations and religions is being pushed all over the world. The move to eliminate cash and require a global carbon tax on everyone will not go away. The momentum is towards and economic collapse that brings the order out of chaos or the Phoenix rising from the ashes into play as the incremental movement is finalized by such a collapse and at that point it will be a denarius for a quart of wheat over the whole earth for a days wage. peace will be taken from the earth and the seeds of ethnic wars are being sowed now with the Isalmic migration to the west. The involvement of Trump and the peace process i agree is what kicks off the 70th week. Trump is a facilitator and not the negotiator. He will bring the people the table and they will divide the land of Israel and concessions to Israel will be made including the return of the sacrifice. A unknown player probably from Europe will be brought in as key negotiator and not Trump. At the very least Trump is saying prophetically peace and security or safety for the region and the world over and over. When they say peace and saftety sudden destruction is what the Bible says is coming. The person in Dan 9 27 is the prince that shall come. Where the 70th week speaks of this prince coming from the line of those who destroyed Jerusalem and the sanctuary. This means he is from the Roman empire which had two legs so that is where I would suspect the one who confirms this covenant will come from. To deny futurism now with every detailed expectation of the futurist lined up and in the newspaper seems foolish to me.
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GUANO
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The language in the scripture itself isn't even gender-specific. The entities being revealed in the visions are egregores. The visions are about how these demonic entities dominate the human race, they are 'principalities' in the literal sense in that they are political bodies. The entire Bible is about who/what rules the world and our hope and path to salvation. Our spiritual enemies understand much of this and love that huge masses of people believe that every president is the antichrist or some other such nonsense—believing that demons are ghosts and similar superstitions. The Bible clearly tells us 2,000 years ago that one day a political body would wield the power to call fire down from the sky at will and that all of the governments of the world will worship it and adopt it's "Image"... To even still have the antichrist debate is like a 400 year old discussion that proved itself when Napoleon imprisoned the Pontiff and the time of the antichrist-beast ended in bloody revolution as reformer bible scholars predicted 200 years earlier. It still exists (and will until the end) but has very little political power.
Here is a snippet of what the occult leaders of groups like the Rosicrusians (like many of the founders of the US) think about Egregores...
Eliphas Lévi, in Le Grand Arcane ("The Great Mystery", 1868) identifies "egregors" with the tradition concerning the "Watchers", the fathers of the nephilim, describing them as "terrible beings" that "crush us without pity because they are unaware of our existence."[2]
The concept of the egregore as a group thoughtform was developed in works of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and the Rosicrucians[3] and has been referenced by writers such as Valentin Tomberg.
And from the Rosicrucian archive:
After the fall of Constantinople, (1453 C.E.) many texts of the Roman and Greek culture reached the West. On the other hand, the legend of the angelic uprising was known in the east of the Empire. A Bar Hebraeus (1226 - 1286) wrote an extensive chronography on the subject:
"...Therefore, according to what time hath brought, I, having entered the Library of the city of MARAGHAH of ADHORBIJAN, have loaded up this my little book with narratives ... from many volumes of the Syrians, Saracens (Arab), and Persians which are preserved here....
After Adam came Seth his son. In the time of Seth, when his sons remembered the blessed life (which they had led) in Paradise, they went up into the mountain of Hermon, and there they led a chaste and holy life, being remote from carnal intercourse; and for this reason they were called IRE , meaning watchers and sons of Alohim. ... After Seth came Anosh his son ... although he submitted to marriage, he was not neglectful in pleasing God, and he did so more than those who chose a life of virginity and who went up into the mountain of Hermon, but who did not abide in their covenant ...
...And in the fortieth year of Yard [biblical Yared]... the Sons of God, about two hundred souls, came down from the mountain of Hermon, because they had lost all hope of a return to Paradise. And because they lusted for carnal intercourse with women, their brethren the sons of Seth and Anosh despised them, and regarded them as transgressors of the covenant, and they refused to give them their daughters. And because of this, they went to the children of Cain, and took wives, and begat mighty men of names ... notorious for murders and robberies. Moreover, they set up over them the first king, a man whose name was Samyazos.
...The ancient Greeks say that Enoch is Harmis [Hermes ] Trismaghistos ..." etc.
(The Chronography of Bar Hebraeus (1226-1286), translated by E. W. Budge, 1932).
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Douggg
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Jesus is the messiah. And the covenant in him, by his death and resurrection is the new covenant
The issue is not if in Jesus is the new covenant. 100% of the posters here hold that position. So there is no reason to continue proving something that we all believe.
Why do you think there are 7 years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39? And all of the end times chapters in Revelation 6-19 are based on 7 years, either the full 7 years or the second half of the 7 years? And that there are component timeframes of the 7 years in Revelation?
I have no idea why someone would make that comment. I am pretty sure though that whoever wrote the commentary was not aware that Moses was the first to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years.
Yes the timeline which the messiah would be cutoff. But in the text of Daniel 9, it doesn't give any indication of the messiah's resurrection - which without the resurrection there is no new covenant, because Christianity did not begin under after Jesus appeared to the disciples in Luke 24:44-48.
Hebrews 10:16-18 doesn't need to because it had been established by Jesus that he was the new covenant, that he commission them following the resurrection to go out and preach to the world. None of those things are found in Daniel 9. Does Daniel 9 speak of the witness of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 10:15) ?
Wouldn't it have been wonderful for your argument if any of the disciples said Jesus confirmed the covenant for 7 years, as Daniel 9:27 prophesied. But none of them did - why not?
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To them it was obvious.
Was the New Covenant confirmed for a group of many for 7 years?
Did Christ command during His earthly ministry of 3 1/2 years that the Gospel be taken first to His own people? Yes.
Does Paul confirm in Galatians 1:18 that he did not take the Gospel to the Gentiles until 3 years after his conversion? Yes.
Was the early Church almost all Jewish? Yes.
Was there some period of time between the death of Christ and the stoning of Stephen? Yes.
What did Jesus say at the Last Supper about the "covenant with many"?
Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
When did the sacrificial system of animal sacrifices come to an end, according to Hebrews 10:16-18? It ended at Calvary. Why do you think God ripped the temple veil in half? This was during the middle of the week, since Christ's earthly ministry was 3 1/2 years.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Because Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24 during the first century based on Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18, claiming that the 70th week is a future event, makes no sense at all, unless a person is trying to make their doctrine work.
Why do we find periods of 3 1/2 years and 7 years throughout the scripture?
Because the Hebrew calendar was based on a cycle of 7 years.
Dr. Kelly Varner on Daniel chapter 9:
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Douggg
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To everyone they were preaching to? No, it was not obvious to them, and it was not believed by the apostles, that Jesus confirmed the covenant for 7 years. That's why they did not say so in the New Testament books.
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Yahchristian
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The problem is Futurists believe that people offering daily temple sacrifices in the future is a necessary and good thing.
But the Bible says that Jesus was the final sacrifice "once for all"! He "taketh away the first" which means it is not coming back.
Hebrews 10:9-10... Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
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Yahchristian
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No. The New Covenant does not have a 7 year time limit.
Whereas the Old Covenant had a time limit and was "taken away" 7 years after Jesus' baptism...
There is no time limit on the New Covenant, which was "once for all" and "for ever"...
Hebrews 10:9-12... Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
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Do you think they understood basic math?
Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken to Daniel's people, the Jews, during His earthly ministry of 3 1/2 years.
There was some period of time between Calvary and the stoning of Stephen.
Based on Galatians 1:18, Paul did not take the Gentiles until 3 years after his conversion.
3.5 + 3 + time from Calvary to Stephen's reviewing the whole history of Israel and then being stoned = about 7 years or more
Daniel 9 is about the New Covenant Messiah, but some of us think the New Covenant was not mentioned in the passage, even though the New Covenant had already been promised in Jeremiah 31 and Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared...
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Now, this answer makes a whole lot of sense to me. I never thought of the broker of the peace treaty/accord being the facilitator for the start of the 70th week. I hope I am understanding you correctly.
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Yahchristian
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To be a little more specific...
Daniel 9:24-27 is about when the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant...
Hebrews 10:9... Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Daniel 9:24 describes the New Covenant, and Daniel 9:27 gives the timing of the end of the Old Covenant.
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Since the New Covenant made the Old Covenant obsolete, you are correct.
When did it go into effect?
Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
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Yahchristian
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You are Correct. When Jesus said "It is finished", he was referring to Daniel 9:24 and the establishment of the New Covenant.
But the New Covenant was established in the middle of Daniel's 70th week (and not at the beginning as you suppose).
Daniel 9:27 shows that the two covenants overlapped for 3 1/2 years (half of a prophetic "week").
My speculation is that was the time necessary for the disciples to spread the word about the Messiah and to give Israelites a chance to accept him.
In other words, if a devout Israelite (who had never heard of Jesus) died shortly after Jesus died, they would still be covered under the Old Covenant. But if a devout Israelite (who does not accept Jesus) died after the 3 1/2 years had expired, they would not.
P.S. The end of the 3 1/2 years seems to be around the time of the stoning of Stephen.
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Nobody was ever saved by the Old Covenant. King David was an adulterer and a murderer, who should have been stoned under the Old Covenant.
The Gospel was preached to Abraham that through his seed a Messiah would come.
Gal_3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
Every person saved in the Old Testament was saved through "faith" in the coming Messiah, based on Hebrews chapter 11.
Based on Galatians 3:16-29, the New Covenant of Christ is the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham.
Abraham never lived under the Sinai Covenant.
He was saved by faith, before he was circumcised.
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Yahchristian
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I agree. I will reword my statement for clarity.
My speculation is that the 3 1/2 years between Jesus' resurrection and the end of Daniel's seventy weeks was the time necessary for the disciples to spread the word about the Messiah and to give Israelites a chance to accept him.
In other words, if an Israelite who had faith in a future Messiah (but who had never heard of Jesus) died shortly after Jesus died, they would still go to Heaven. But if an Israelite who had faith in a future Messiah (but who does not accept Jesus) died after the 3 1/2 years had expired, they would not.
P.S.
Could you clarify your view...
When was the New Covenant established?
When did the 70th week begin?
I think the New Covenant was established in the middle of the 70th week.
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Brian Mcnamee
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Hi and thanks for sharing the origin of the sons of Seth theory as that was new for me. I do not agree and really point to Enoch and Jude and Peter as my proofs as well as Job. Job the oldest book begins with the phrase the son's of God were presenting themselves before the LORD and Satan was among them. This is certainly linking this term with the demonic realm. The DNA of Seth would not produce giants. There were giants before and after the flood. Jude says 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude says the angels did not keep their 1sst estate and the people of Sodom went after strange flesh; it could be they wanted to abuse the angels again cross being relations.
2 Peter 4 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
You see here Satan is an angel and he certainly sinned and he is not yet cast down to hell and chains. In Enoch he names several chief angles who led a group of 200 angels to leave their 1st abode and they took wives for themselves. It also says they gave man specific sciences such as metalwork, cosmetics, sorcery, and astrology. The end times is supposed to be like the days of Noah. The ancient technology if you do some research was incredible and now we are seeing an explosion in science. The CERN project and others point to the soon return of what PBS is telling people are ancient aliens. The men who have done a lot of research into this include LA Marzulli, Tom Horn, Christ Putnim Timothy Alberino have shown there were races of giants pre and post flood. They show that powers in government and in the church are preparing for open disclosure of races of aliens. These men of the Bible warn they are not from other planets but from another dimension. When 2 Thes 4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
What kind of God is he claiming to be? Certainly not the God of creation but he will likely claim to be the ancient God returned. In the midpoint of the tribulation in Rev 13 we see the dragon giving his authority to the beast who causes all to worship both the dragon Satan and the beast. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast,
Peter spoke of the angels that sinned being bound and he was referring to not all those who were loyal to Satan but of those recorded by Peter to have been put in hell already which are the sons of God who took wives, the angles who did not keep their 1st estate. This scenario plays out until the end and the idea of the sons of Seth really takes the supernatural out of the Bible.
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