Futurist Only Peace and Safety, two views

Douggg

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verse 24 mentions "anoint the holy" that is Jesus's baptism at the start of week 70 not the Passover. Its the start of Jesus's ministry.
The church age did not begin until Luke 24:44-48, after the resurrection - after the cross. Which at that time they were told to go out and preach to the nations. The cross is in Daniel 9:26 yes, but not the resurrection. The covenant in Daniel 9:27 is not the new covenant... but the old covenant which there are 70 weeks of years, till the Jews and Jerusalem turn loose of the old covenant, not there yet. Try to look at it that way.

The prince who shall come, shall confirm the Sinai covenant for the 7 years as required by Deuteronomy 31:9-13. Moses was the first one to confirm the covenant for 7 years. The seven years are in the text of Deuteronomy 31:10. The prince who shall come, will be anointed the King of israel, instead of Jesus the rightful King of Israel, making the person officially the Antichrist. The confirming of the covenant for 7 years is going to be a big world wide viewed ceremony from the temple mount.

Whether Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 12 (a continuation of Daniel 11), Daniel 9 - they all end with the same climatic event - the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ - which the very cosmos will part in that time. Daniel 9 is not concluded with the stoning of Stephen being the conclusion of the 70th week. It is actually very diminishing of the prophecy, to say it all points to Stephen's stoning.

To anoint the most holy is a referral to Psalms 2, God placing Jesus as King of Israel - and over all the other nations.

Jesus returns as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Revelation 19. Christ, which messiah is called Christ John 4:25 ; in Mark 15:32 it was common knowledge back then Christ to mean King of Israel.

Psalms 2, the anointing of the Most Holy....

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Verses 1-3 is the kings of the earth preparing to fight Jesus, gathering at Armageddon to stop him from returning, Revelation 16:14-16

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Verses 4-6, God takes out his wrath on them, and puts Jesus on David's throne in Jerusalem, anyway


7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Verse 7, the day of Jesus's return, God begets him as King of Israel, that is fulfills Daniel 9 anointing the Most Holy. Currently Daniel's people and Jerusalem reject that Jesus is the rightful King of Israel.


8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Verse 8-9, corresponds to Ezekiel 39:21, Jesus having returned to planet earth, among the nations, ruling with a rod of iron. The heathen is the term used for the nations in Ezekiel 39:21

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
 
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keras

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uh.... I assume you are talking to me? Two doug's here. One dougangel, and me Douggg.

if you were addressing me, keras, please don't mix up what I wrote...:). Gog/Magog is not Armageddon. Two different events.

Armageddon is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, 7 years after Gog/Magog - which Gog/Magog is also in Ezekiel 39 but only in Ezekiel 39:1-16.

If you think all of Ezekiel 39 is about Gog/Magog - slap on hand, bad New Zelander, bad, bad....^_^^_^^_^
Yes, the one with all the ggg's The one who takes no notice of proof he is wrong; the EU nonsense, for example.
But I do agree that the 70th 'week' is still future!

Glad we agree on that, but Ezekiel 39 is all before Armageddon. The G/M attack is in order for God to display His glory to the new citizens in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 38:8 & 12 They are all the Christian peoples, who will go there, soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath- the Sixth Seal disaster. They [we] will live there undisturbed and undefended, Ezekiel 38:11. Not like the Jewish State of Israel is now. Jeremiah 12:14
 
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dougangel

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Yes, the one with all the ggg's The one who takes no notice of proof he is wrong; the EU nonsense, for example.
But I do agree that the 70th 'week' is still future!

Glad we agree on that, but Ezekiel 39 is all before Armageddon. The G/M attack is in order for God to display His glory to the new citizens in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 38:8 & 12 They are all the Christian peoples, who will go there, soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath- the Sixth Seal disaster. They [we] will live there undisturbed and undefended, Ezekiel 38:11. Not like the Jewish State of Israel is now. Jeremiah 12:14


I agree with you that the EU is nonsense.
But there is nothing in chapt 9 to back up you jumping 70 week to the end. Although something is going to happen in the last days I don't think chapt 9 is dealing with that. If you actually read the verses right in chapt 9 the 70 week is pointing out Christ.
 
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dfw69

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There is another scenario to consider conserning the time when they shall say "peace and safety"

After the two witnesses are killed by Abbadon/Apollyon, (the angel of the bottomless pit), it will seem that the antichrist will have gotten the victory.....

then they will think "peace and safety" and the people will rejoice and send gifts for 3 days .....

but then after 3 days ,the 2 witnesses will arise and ascend to heaven and then comes sudden destruction as the city's of the nations fall from a mighty earthquake and Jesus returns to destroy the armies that have gathered to destroy the Jews
 
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dfw69

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The church age did not begin until Luke 24:44-48, after the resurrection - after the cross. Which at that time they were told to go out and preach to the nations. The cross is in Daniel 9:26 yes, but not the resurrection. The covenant in Daniel 9:27 is not the new covenant... but the old covenant which there are 70 weeks of years, till the Jews and Jerusalem turn loose of the old covenant, not there yet. Try to look at it that way.

The prince who shall come, shall confirm the Sinai covenant for the 7 years as required by Deuteronomy 31:9-13. Moses was the first one to confirm the covenant for 7 years. The seven years are in the text of Deuteronomy 31:10. The prince who shall come, will be anointed the King of israel, instead of Jesus the rightful King of Israel, making the person officially the Antichrist. The confirming of the covenant for 7 years is going to be a big world wide viewed ceremony from the temple mount.

Whether Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 12 (a continuation of Daniel 11), Daniel 9 - they all end with the same climatic event - the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ - which the very cosmos will part in that time. Daniel 9 is not concluded with the stoning of Stephen being the conclusion of the 70th week. It is actually very diminishing of the prophecy, to say it all points to Stephen's stoning.

To anoint the most holy is a referral to Psalms 2, God placing Jesus as King of Israel - and over all the other nations.

Jesus returns as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Revelation 19. Christ, which messiah is called Christ John 4:25 ; in Mark 15:32 it was common knowledge back then Christ to mean King of Israel.

Psalms 2, the anointing of the Most Holy....

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Verses 1-3 is the kings of the earth preparing to fight Jesus, gathering at Armageddon to stop him from returning, Revelation 16:14-16

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Verses 4-6, God takes out his wrath on them, and puts Jesus on David's throne in Jerusalem, anyway


7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Verse 7, the day of Jesus's return, God begets him as King of Israel, that is fulfills Daniel 9 anointing the Most Holy. Currently Daniel's people and Jerusalem reject that Jesus is the rightful King of Israel.


8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Verse 8-9, corresponds to Ezekiel 39:21, Jesus having returned to planet earth, among the nations, ruling with a rod of iron. The heathen is the term used for the nations in Ezekiel 39:21

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Hello Doug

The purpose of Daniel 70th week is to redeem Israel from her wayward ways ... redeemed her from her sins, from the law , to establish the new covenant, to deliver her from false shepherds, etc

it's her jubilee of jubilees, the time when she will be Gods glory on earth again and a faithful witness to all nations because she will receive her messiah... it's the true messianic age


To anoint the most "Holy" place could be a reference to the new temple that Jesus will erect. The temple described in Ezekiel. The throne room will be the Holy of holies where the messiah ,king and priest, will sit and judge righteously
 
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I have a question. Douggg you say that the man of sin will come out of Europe. There is prophecy that says Japheth will dwell in Shem's tents.
Gen. 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Has this prophecy come to pass? If so, when did it happen?
 
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keras

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But there is nothing in chapt 9 to back up you jumping 70 week to the end. Although something is going to happen in the last days I don't think chapt 9 is dealing with that. If you actually read the verses right in chapt 9 the 70 week is pointing out Christ.
Yes, Daniel 9 doesn't make it clear that there is a 2000+- years gap between the 69th week and the 70th. But the fact that the 70 weeks is divided into 7 + 62 + 1, is a clue and the time periods Daniel 12:11-12 gives us, plus all the 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 year times in Revelation, is sufficient to place that last week just before the Return.
Also it is merely conjecture and guesswork to fit it into Jesus' first Advent. The date of Stephens death is simply not given to us.
 
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dougangel

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Yes, Daniel 9 doesn't make it clear that there is a 2000+- years gap between the 69th week and the 70th. But the fact that the 70 weeks is divided into 7 + 62 + 1, is a clue and the time periods Daniel 12:11-12 gives us, plus all the 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 year times in Revelation, is sufficient to place that last week just before the Return.
Also it is merely conjecture and guesswork to fit it into Jesus' first Advent. The date of Stephens death is simply not given to us.

The whole context of chap 9 is the rebuilding of the 2nd temple and the resuming of the national sacrifices and the ending of the old covenant.

Daniel 9: 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After 62 weeks from the building of the temple the messiah is cut off, Christ crucified in the midst of the 70 week from the decree of the temple.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation(offerings to God) to cease.
In the middle of the week Christ becomes the temple. The last week is a time of judgement as well as other things.
 
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keras

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27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation(offerings to God) to cease.
In the middle of the week Christ becomes the temple. The last week is a time of judgement as well as other things.
Why must you think that the 70th week is past? You can't prove it and the indications today are more toward a future fulfilment.

How then, do you reconcile the fact that Jesus warned about Daniels prophecy. Matthew 24:15 The Temple destruction in 70 AD didn't fulfil it.
 
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dougangel

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Why must you think that the 70th week is past? You can't prove it and the indications today are more toward a future fulfilment.

How then, do you reconcile the fact that Jesus warned about Daniels prophecy. Matthew 24:15 The Temple destruction in 70 AD didn't fulfil it.

The disciples probably thought they were asking one question. The fall of Jerusalem, Jesus' return, and the end of the age were one complex event in their minds. It may seem to us that they asked three questions:

When will the temple fall?

What is the sign of Jesus' return?

What is the sign of the close of this age?

But a close reading shows that Jesus heard and answered two questions. Evangelical scholars will disagree about how much of this passage is devoted to each question, but they generally agree that 24:15-29 mostly refers to events leading up to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. In 24:4-14, the, Jesus is preparing his disciples for events—most of them extremely difficult—that will take place in their lifetime. These troubles are not signs of the end; the disciples must be ready to “stand firm” through them (24:4-8, 13). Then he says, “When you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation . . . '—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

This prophecy makes sense only with reference to the fall of Jerusalem. It cannot possibly apply to Jesus' return. When he comes it will be pointless for an unbeliever to try to flee. And a believer will not want to flee. For the same reason, the following command not to go back to get a cloak and the woe for nursing mothers who must flee cannot refer to Jesus' return. Indeed that abomination did come in Roman form in AD 70. The Roman armies were always an abomination because they carried with them idolatrous images of the emperor, whom they worshiped. And those armies brought desolation because their commander leveled the city and entered the holy of holies, defiling it.

The line “let the reader understand” (24:15) means that those who read Matthew—which would have been written before AD 70—must be ready to flee when they see Roman armies besieging Jerusalem. Indeed, the parallel account in Luke 21 makes this point explicit: “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies . . . flee to the mountains” (Luke 21:10-24). In fact, many Christians did flee, sparing their lives, when they saw Rome's armies coming. Eusebius, the first great historian of the church, says that when the Romans fell upon Jerusalem, “the church at Jerusalem . . . left the city, and moved to a town called Pella.” So Jesus, ever the Good Shepherd, told the first Christians how to survive those most harrowing years of the church's infancy.

What Is the ‘Abomination of Desolation’?.

The 3 1/2 times is mentioned several times in scripture. Is it used for the same period of time in history and prophecies with the same meaning ? Don't think so.
  • 3 1/2 Times - Rev 12:14, Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7
  • 1260 days - Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6
  • 42 Months - Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5
  • Middle of the week 3 1/2 days Dan 9:26
 
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keras

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Indeed that abomination did come in Roman form in AD 70. The Roman armies were always an abomination because they carried with them idolatrous images of the emperor, whom they worshiped. And those armies brought desolation because their commander leveled the city and entered the holy of holies, defiling it.
This did not happen as prophesied in 2 Thess 2:4 The 2nd Temple was destroyed before Titus could enter it.
“the church at Jerusalem . . . left the city, and moved to a town called Pella.”
Yes the prophecy of fleeing from Jerusalem when it is encircled by armies, was fulfilled in 70 AD.
The 3 1/2 times is mentioned several times in scripture. Is it used for the same period of time in history and prophecies with the same meaning ? Don't think so.
  • 3 1/2 Times - Rev 12:14, Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7
  • 1260 days - Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6
  • 42 Months - Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5
  • Middle of the week 3 1/2 days Dan 9:26
Daniel 9:27, is a clear statement that the last 'week', seven years, is divided into halves. All the other mentions of the 3 1/2 period, refer to the second half, when the holy people of God- every true Christian person: who are by then living in all of the holy Land, are separated into two groups, as per Revelation 12:6-17. Daniel 11:32 describes them.
 
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dougangel

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This did not happen as prophesied in 2 Thess 2:4 The 2nd Temple was destroyed before Titus could enter it.

Surely the roman soldiers who destroyed the temple defiled it ?
I haven't said anything about thess to you anyway. I don't think 2 Thess is related to 70 ad.
 
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dougangel

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Yes, Daniel 9 doesn't make it clear that there is a 2000+- years gap between the 69th week and the 70th. But the fact that the 70 weeks is divided into 7 + 62 + 1, is a clue and the time periods Daniel 12:11-12 gives us, plus all the 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 year times in Revelation, is sufficient to place that last week just before the Return.
Also it is merely conjecture and guesswork to fit it into Jesus' first Advent. The date of Stephens death is simply not given to us.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself - 62 weeks after the temple is rebuilt Christ is crucified to save mankind.
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary - The Romans attack Jerusalem and sack the temple around 70 ad. The prince Titus son of Cesar carries it out.
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolation's are determined.-There are more wars and desolation's of Israel and countries to continue.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off.It tells you the 70 week is when the messiah is cut of
 
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keras

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Surely the roman soldiers who destroyed the temple defiled it ? /QUOTE]
Sure they did. But they didn't fulfil Daniel 9:27 or 2 Thess 2:4. All that awaits a final fulfilment.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off. It tells you the 70 week is when the messiah is cut of
Daniel 9:25-26 tells us that after 7 + 62 = 69 weeks have passes the Anointed One will be removed. The 70th 'week' remains and is still future to us today.
Corrected post below:
 
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keras

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Surely the roman soldiers who destroyed the temple defiled it ?

Sure they did. But they didn't fulfil Daniel 9:27 or 2 Thess 2:4. All that awaits a final fulfilment.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off. It tells you the 70 week is when the messiah is cut of

Daniel 9:25-26 tells us that after 7 + 62 = 69 weeks have passes the Anointed One will be removed. The 70th 'week' remains and is still future to us today.
 
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Douggg

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I have a question. Douggg you say that the man of sin will come out of Europe. There is prophecy that says Japheth will dwell in Shem's tents.
Gen. 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Has this prophecy come to pass? If so, when did it happen?
I don't know exactly what that verse means. I will ask the Jews what they think about that verse; they always have some interesting answers.
 
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dougangel

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Sure they did. But they didn't fulfil Daniel 9:27 or 2 Thess 2:4. All that awaits a final fulfilment.



Daniel 9:25-26 tells us that after 7 + 62 = 69 weeks have passes the Anointed One will be removed. The 70th 'week' remains and is still future to us today.
[/QUOTE]

Wow I have gone through this.

Daniel 9: 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After 62 weeks from the building of the temple the messiah is cut off, Christ crucified in the midst of the 70 week from the decree of the temple.
It pin points it. The 70th week is the week the Messiah is cut off.

It doesn't make sense to put the 70 week in the future especially as it says in that week the messiah will be cut off, pin pointing it to the crucifixion.

But I think we will just agree to disagree God bless.
 
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There are some who claim that the Kenites were descendants of Cain, due to the similarity between the Hebrew words translated "Cain" and "Kenite." However, unless someone in Noah’s family was a descendant of Cain, all of Cain’s descendants would have been wiped out in the Flood. Further, even if a member of Noah’s family was a descendant of Cain, there would be no way, post-Flood, for a distinct line of Cain to re-emerge. For example, if Ham’s wife was a descendant of Cain, all of Ham’s descendants would be descendants of Cain. With that said, the important point is this – the Bible nowhere connects the Kenites with Cain.
That is all I was trying to get you to see. :)
 
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Douggg

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I have a question. Douggg you say that the man of sin will come out of Europe. There is prophecy that says Japheth will dwell in Shem's tents.
Gen. 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Has this prophecy come to pass? If so, when did it happen?
I did ask the Jews about that verse, Judaism's view of it, and I got a reply from one of their Rabbi's. Here it is....

"Just look at Western Civilization and it answers your question.

The more G-dless a society becomes, the more depraved that society becomes.

Japhet represents the appreciation and beauty of the physical but it has to be governed by whats really important spirituality. That's the tent of Shem.
When the spiritual framework is removed than the physical goes off in all directions and almost all of them are depraved. Some brazenly, some more subtly, but all detrimental."
 
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dougangel

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Strong word connect Kenite word with descendants of Cain.

Strong’s word 7017 meaning,

“from H7014; a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin: – Kenite.”

“Kajin” is Strong’s word 7014 meaning,

“Kajin, the name of the first child,

The Kenites were an ancient people living near the land of Canaan around the time of Abraham (Genesis 15:18–21). The Bible mentions several dealings between the Israelites and the Kenites, who were always on friendly terms with each other.

Moses’ father-in-law, Jethro, also known as Reuel, was “the priest of Midian” and a Kenite (Judges 1:16). Jethro lived south of Canaan near Mount Sinai (Exodus 3:1). When Moses fled from Egypt, he went to Midian, where he right away met Jethro’s seven daughters, all shepherdesses. Moses eventually wed one of them, a woman named Zipporah (Exodus 2:16–21) and thus married into the Kenite tribe. Moses lived among the Kenites for many years before God called him as the one to deliver the Israelites from their enslavement in Egypt.

It seems that the Kenites in Midian knew enough about the one true God to maintain a priest. The name Reuel means “friend of God.” After the exodus, Reuel’s knowledge of God dramatically increased, and he joined Moses and Aaron in bringing a burnt sacrifice and other offerings before the Lord to worship Him (Exodus 18:9–12).

It is probable that the Kenites and the Midianites were related in some way. Reuel lived in Midian when Moses met him. Also, in Numbers 10:29, Moses’ father-in-law is called “Reuel the Midianite” (elsewhere, he is called a Kenite). Scripture also links the Kenites to the tribe of the Rekabites (1 Chronicles 2:55).

The Kenites were friendly to Moses and the Israelites during the time of the exodus. It seems that Jethro, Hobab, and other Kenites joined with Moses and traveled all the way to Canaan with the people of God (Exodus 18:1–7; Numbers 10:29–33). The Kenites settled near Jericho until they eventually moved south to live in the desert region of Negev (Judges 1:16; cf. 1 Samuel 27:10). However, a Kenite named Heber stayed in Canaan, migrating north to near Kedesh. It was Heber’s wife, Jael, who killed Sisera during the time of Deborah and Barak (Judges 4:11, 17–23). During King Saul’s reign, God instructed Israel to destroy the Amalekites. But mercy was shown to the Kenites who lived among the Amalekites; before Saul attacked, “he said to the Kenites, ‘Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.’ So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites” (1 Samuel 15:6).
 
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