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Featured Futurist Only Peace and Safety, two views

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Regarding 1thessalonian5 saying peace and safety right before the Day of the Lord begins, there are two basic views on how that is going to be fulfilled.

    View 1, The prince who shall come person confirms a peace treaty, having a 7 year stipulation of some sorts, involving Israel. Under this scenario, it is not necessary for the person to be a Jew. This scenario in large part is based on Daniel 8 that he destroys many by peace.

    View 2. The person who becomes the Antichrist, anointed the King of Israel, confirms the Mt Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. This scenario requires that the person be a Jew. Which the Jews will think they have entered the messianic reign of peace and safety. My view is this one.
     
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  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Both views are wrong, as it will be the soon to happen, terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, that will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt, initially ruled by 10 Governors, but quickly taken over by another charismatic man.
    All as prophesied by Daniel 7:23-24 and Revelation 17:12-13
    In no way is he anointed the king of Israel, Iv'e no idea where you get that from.
     
  3. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    I don't actually interpret Daniel 8 like that. Dan 8 has synergy Dan 2 and 7 and others
    upload_2017-3-3_22-4-51.png

    18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

    19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

    20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

    Media and Persia

    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

    Greece

    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

    Alexander dies young and 4 leaders of his army take over for a time.

    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    Caesar. The Roman Empire

    24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    Enslaves Israel. 70 ad destroys Israel and disperses many to other nations. Israel ceases to be a nation of self determination. The roman empire persecutes Christians

    25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Caesar and the Roman Empire prospered and claimed to be God. killing and enslaving many in the known world when at peace with them though occupying them. Killed Jesus. The Roman Empire wasn’t conquered. It just broke up.

    26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.


    27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    This is the verse in Daniel 8, that them who hold view 1, base in large part of peace treaty being the covenant in Daniel 9:26-27. Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Persons who subscribe to view 1 also cite the peace and safety in 1thessalonian5, as being the result a peace agreement that the prince who shall come confirms.

    I personally don't hold that view 1, but I am just trying to give the rationale of the predominant wide spread view 1.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  5. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    24"His power will be mighty, but not by his own power, And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree And prosper and perform his will; He will destroy mighty men and the holy people. 25"And through his shrewdness He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, But he will be broken without human agency. 26"The vision of the evenings and mornings Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."…
    New American Standard Bible

    and by peace shall destroy many: When people were at peace the Romans destroyed them.
    He will even oppose the Prince of princes: The Romans opposed Christ
    But he will be broken without human agency: The roman empire wasn't conquered by people.

    Daniel 8:25 is about the roman empire period not the end times in this chapter.
    It all follows in chronological order and has synergy with other chapters.
     
  6. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    One view allows a Muslim to be the 'antichrist' and give the Zionists a pass.
    (and for what its worth, Iran's nuclear pact, made on Nov 24, 2013 will get to 1260 days on May 6, 2017, which is also the 'middle of the 7' / mid 7 weeks from Passover to Shavuot, ie 24.5 days after Passover, 10 Iyyar.)

    The other view implicates Zionists.

    When the 1st scenario happens, then the Zionist messiah gets off scot free.
     
  7. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    I'm just trying to say Dan 8 isn't a part of Thessalonians and I think your mixing your prophecies together when you shouldn't.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    My own take on Daniel 8 is from Daniel's time everything in Daniel 8 was future. From our time, parts of Daniel 8 are historic. But there are parts - the parts about the little horn are future because that the vision of the transgression of desolation is said in the text to be time of the end.

    Okay, there is a transgression of desolation of the sanctuary to take place, concurrent with the stopping of the daily sacrifice. So there has to be temple built of some sorts built on the temple mount. Not there yet.

    The transgression of desolation is an act - which is why it is called a transgression, and not an abomination, which is a thing to be setup. The transgression of desolation will the act that the person, who will be the King of Israel at the time, commits by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God. That's in 2thessalonians2:3-4.

    Backtracking in 2thessalonians, before that act there is a falling away from Christianity. Why so? Because the person, who becomes the Anti-messiah, that is, King of Israel, will be so convincing that he is the true messiah, that many in Christianity will fall away from believing in Jesus. So the person having been anointed the King of Israel will be because the Jews following Gog/Magog with think they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety - which is the peace and safety mindset in 1Thessalonians5. That is the connection I make with View 2.

    Everything is hinged on the person becoming the Antichrist by being anointed the King of Israel. After he reveals himself as the man of sin - his time as being the Antichrist King of Israel role will be over - because the Jews will reject him as continuing as their king, and they will turn to Jesus. That's maybe an oversimplification because there will be the over three years of testimony by the two witnesses the whole time, telling the Jews what is going to happen.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Yes, that's what I am saying view 1 allows as a possibility. I disagree with that view, but I think it is the most wide spread view.
     
  10. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

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    Let me add :
    [​IMG]
    That prince is the antichrist launched by the 1st seal opening to win false peace in the world, and the whole world will say Peace and Safety.

    Then after a short period of Peace the 2nd seal shall be opened, the Peace shall be Removed and people will kill each other.

    May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH
     
  11. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    I've gone to a fair bit of trouble to show a interpretation that makes sense with what is said and does seem to fit Christ and Cesar and the roman empire that spans many hundreds of years.
    Dan 2 doesn't mention an end time anti Christ and I don't feel 8 does either.
    Some of what you say is possible and I do believe there is an end time anti Christ spoken of in Thessalonians and revelation. THere are other plausible thing as well. THis why I at wait see in a lot of it.
     
  12. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

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    You need to revisit Daniel's 70 weeks :
    Dan 9:25 there will be seven ‘weeks,’ and sixty-two ‘weeks.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

    The 2nd Temple rebuilt.

    26
    After the sixty-two ‘weeks,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

    Jesus crucified

    The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

    the people are the Roman (the people of the antichrist who will come)

    total 69 weeks

    the final week jump to the end times :

    27
    He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”

    Because Daniel didnt even know that Gentiles will inherit the Covenant first thru the present Church Age, then will come the FINAL WEEK.
    Ephesian 3:5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets
    Ephesian 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
    [​IMG]
    May Jesus bless you HalleluYAH
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Daniel 2 does not mention a singular person I agree. There is no mention of Antichrist in any passage in the Tanach by that term. The term Antichrist itself, by tradition and habit, has been misapplied too broadly to the person. Being the Antichrist has to be looked at more as a role the person is in for a period of time. At other times, he is the revealed man of sin (no longer in the role of being the Antichrist) and the little horn, and the prince who shall come, and the beast - which those are other roles, which he is not the "Antichrist".

    The wait see is before the person ever becomes the Antichrist, he first appears as the little horn - leader of Europe, which is not at that final form yet. When Europe goes to that ten leader form of government, sometime before 2030, probably a lot sooner, that person is going to stick out like a sore thumb. The reorganization of the European government is what to watch for.
     
  14. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Not in that chart and interpretation.

    Go to Ezekiel 39, where that chart and interpretation fails. Following the feast on Gog's army in 39:4 is 7 years. That 7 years is the seventieth week.

    In Ezekiel 39:17-20 is a second feast,a different feast, not a repeat, - the Armageddon feast.

    Ezekiel 39, the chapter begins with Gog's destruction, forthcoming. Then the cleanup of the land of Israel. Then a 7year period following - which is the 70th week of Daniel 9. The 70th week of Daniel 9 climaxes with Jesus's return to this earth. Ezekiel 39:17-29 is from the perspective of Jesus having returned to this earth and speaking, beginning with the destruction at Armageddon....


    Ezekiel 39:
    17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

    18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

    19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

    20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

    17-20 is the Armageddon feast corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18


    21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

    Verse 21, Jesus having returned to planet earth, among the nations, ruling with a rod of iron.

    22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

    Verse 22, Israel the Jews will know God as Jesus in that day. Before Abraham was "I am" John 8:58.

    23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

    24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

    Verses 23-24 relates back to when Jesus said because they rejected him, their temple would be destroyed, Jerusalem surrounded and taken, and the defenders killed, and the Jews exiled to the nations. All happened in the three Jewish revolts against the Romans. The last revolt being the bar Kokhba revolt in 132-136 AD.

    25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

    26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

    27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

    Verses 25-27 is where we are on the timeline right now. Israel a nation again, Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews. Islam profaning God's name as Allah. The Lord is going to defend Israel when Gog/Magog attacks.

    28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

    29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

    Verses 28-29 the Jews are going to know that Jesus is the Lord their God who entered this world taking on flesh, to die for the sins of mankind, and ascended back to heaven, and will be returning to execute judgment on the wicked in verses 17-20 of this chapter.

    Verse 28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect, who will be the Jews who will be Christians at that time, back to the land of Israel.
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Revelation was written after Jesus' Advent, so the two 1260, 3 1/2 year periods described there, remain to be fulfilled. Also the time periods of Daniel 12:11-12

    Dougg, please don't mix up Armageddon with Gog/Magog. They are plainly two different wars.
     
  17. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Ok well I'll spell out a bit more. Please read carefully

    [​IMG]


    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Israel has 70 weeks to repent acknowledge God and to anoint the most holy and Reckonise Christ.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    The decree to build the temple goes out. 70 weeks. Then the temple is built again. 62 weeks even with Israel having wars and being enslaved by the Romans and other troubles.

    26
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Christ is crucified to save mankind. The Romans attack Jerusalem and sack the temple around 70 ad. The prince Titus son of Cesar carries it out. There are more wars and desolation's to continue.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Christ becomes the temple spiritually and brings forth the New covenant. Israel becomes desolate generally and Israelites lose control of it.

    Daniel was a pretty amazing prophet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Yes, BUT....as they say.....Jerusalem, arrival of Messiah the Prince - that was the passover week that Jesus rode into Jerusalem riding the donkey, their King (messiah) in Zechariah 9:9, O daughter of Jerusalem , hailed as the messiah, King, son of David. 4 days later he was crucified.

    Sorry, but no new covenant mentioned in Daniel 9, as a covenant - because the new covenant involves both the being cutoff and the resurrection - see my avatar, that is the new covenant represented, the cross and the empty grave. There is nothing in Daniel 9 mentioning the resurrection.

    The seventieth week is in Ezekiel 39 as well, as I pointed out. It is also in Revelation 12, by time units, 1260 days Revelation 12:6 plus the time, times, half time in Revelation 12:14 - together are the 7 years.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    uh.... I assume you are talking to me? Two doug's here. One dougangel, and me Douggg.

    if you were addressing me, keras, please don't mix up what I wrote...:). Gog/Magog is not Armageddon. Two different events.

    Armageddon is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, 7 years after Gog/Magog - which Gog/Magog is also in Ezekiel 39 but only in Ezekiel 39:1-16.

    If you think all of Ezekiel 39 is about Gog/Magog - slap on hand, bad New Zelander, bad, bad....^_^^_^^_^
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
  20. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Wow your critical of that. In the context of what Daniel is talking about in chapt 9 that fits. There may be end time chapters in Daniel. Chapter 12 says end times in NIV that might be a clue. History may even repeat itself. I added New covenant being preached as the gospel to gentiles because that what happened after 34 ad I not saying Daniel said that.It fits into the end of that week. and it is the start of the church age.
    Wow do u not understand that Doug ?
    People keep adding different chapters and prophecies in Daniel to what I'm talking about. I not talking about chapter 12. Although there are some things the same. There are different things in the different chapters of Daniel. There different prophecies.

    verse 24 mentions "anoint the holy" that is Jesus's baptism at the start of week 70 not the Passover. Its the start of Jesus's ministry.
     
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