• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

PBS:Freud and his wishful thinking

Discussion in 'Archived - Ethics & Morality' started by radorth, Sep 23, 2004.

  1. radorth

    radorth Contributor

    +162
    Non-Denom
    Watchhing the PBS special, I generally found Freud a thoughtful soul and obviously intelligent. However he made a major gaff which at first seems like profound insight and, on a moment's reflection is the product of a naive world-view.

    Freud wants to believe so badly in human progress without God that he says of the Nazi's:

    "A few hundred years ago they would have burned me, but now they are satisfied with burning my books."

    Now just think about that. Was he where the Nazi's could get at him or around when they started the Holocaust? No. Would they have gassed and incinerated him if he had been? Of course they would have.

    Here is the greatest irony- that his sister was later gassed and cremated in a Nazi death camp.

    We are reminded, watching the program, of the things we discuss here, and which I think we discuss more thoroughly in some cases.

    In this example I am reminded of the world-views of skeptics which so desperately want to find a ray of hope in history as Freud tried to do. Their faith that some "enlightenment" will prevent Armageddon is reallly more naive than the typical Christian worldview. We know human nature, from experience, from history and from the Bible.

    The reality is that the Nazi's would have burned Freud in a second if they had had the chance in the 1940's and to agree with Freud is to ignore history in order to stay in your bubble. Freud died in the 30's and his and Bertrandt Russell's wishful thinking had absolutely no effect on history. In fact the century they thought to "enlighten" was the bloodiest, most murderous century in history by far, and not just from war but from the "enlightened" atheist dictators who murdered, starved, or worked to death 40,000,000 more people.

    Rad
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Mary of Bethany

    Mary of Bethany Only one thing is needful. Supporter

    +854
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    Yes.

    And I thought the people in the panel discussion who seem to think that our morality comes from our eons of experience as a species, and that we need nothing outside of ourselves, are victims of the same delusion.

    As the broker (Holladay?) said - it's hard enough to try to love others as ourselves even with God's help, how can we even hope to do that without Him?
     
  3. Hairy Reasoner

    Hairy Reasoner Question Everything

    280
    +40
    Atheist
    I found the choice of Freud and Lewis to be odd choices. Freud had some pretty wacky ideas about psychology, which while innovative, are not taken particularly seriously anymore, and I find Lewis's thinking to amount to cherry picking ideas that support what he already believes, and it astonishes me that anyone would think that his arguments are compelling, esp. those put forth in Mere Christianity. Pitting these two guys against each other in a fictional debate is just silly. The panel discussion on that show was OK, but I've seen better discussions here and on iidb.org.
     
  4. radorth

    radorth Contributor

    +162
    Non-Denom
    Yes in fact we have discussed some matters more thoroughly, I agree. However I am not sure they picked all the best insights of the two. Some of Lewis' insights are brilliant, for example his take on repentance:

    "The more you need it, the less you can do it."

    I doubt any thoughtful skeptics would disagree with that little gem, and of course it validates the Biblical view of sin and human weakness as few other 10 word statements have ever done. Overall, Lewis did better at revealing the ineffable, exposing the generic self-righteous nature of humans and the reasons history will ever repeat itself as well anybody ever has.

    Sorry your Freud couldn't keep up and came off as so unrealistic.

    Rad
     
  5. Arkanin

    Arkanin Human

    +269
    Anglican
    US-Libertarian
    What about the Christian nation that put jews in death camps? What about all the other history of the world, where Christians killed more people and fought more than anyone else? What about the spanish inquisition?

    Does the fact that all of these things happened have any relevance whatsoever to the truth or worthiness of Christianity or atheism? What exactly is the point of this diatribe?
     
  6. radorth

    radorth Contributor

    +162
    Non-Denom
    So Hitler was a Christian who hated Jews I guess. Bit of a stretch.

    Excuse me. Stalin and Mao, two atheists, killed, murdered, starved or worked to death more people than all the wars of all religious people in history- many hundreds of times those killed by medieval "Christians" who by the way were totally ignorant of the New Testament.

    But I guess you, applying the same logic, blame your children for all they do in ignorance. Of course if you want to compare informed Christians sins with atheist's atrocities, the numbers are even more unfavorable to you.

    Diatribe? I would say the term applied much better to your comments. I am merely pointing out that Freud clearly engaged in wishful thinking, while Lewis came across as far more realistic in his world-view. Of course skeptics have no hope except in their personal version of "rational thinking" and some vain hope that it will change the world one day. Well it's been 150 years since Ingersoll started preaching it, and we just had by far our most destructive century.

    Oh by the way, Freud was safe in London, among Christians, by 1939.

    Rad
     
  7. hordeprime

    hordeprime God loves Atheists.

    804
    +69
    Atheist
    For anyone's reference, here is a good article debunking this common fallicious argument against atheism: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathm_nat_killed.htm

    Also, from this article at Infidels.org:

    And a favorite quote from Emmitt Fields:

    "Communism, like Christianity, is an ideological force that is destructive to human rights and freedom."


    While Christianity = Christ, I am thankful that atheism does not, in fact, = Stalin. :amen:
     
  8. radorth

    radorth Contributor

    +162
    Non-Denom
    Heh heh.

    This is the same exact fallacy you claim I have used. Who said Christ ever approved of anything but nascent Christianity?

    It's like saying Marx approved of Stalin, which I am honest enough to say is unlikely. But then you would say everyone who waves a flag is a patriot. Correct?

    You really must read how Stalin became an atheist after reading Darwin.

    Rad
     
  9. radorth

    radorth Contributor

    +162
    Non-Denom
    Let's see:

    !850-1875. "Enlightened" skeptics and atheists grow and multiply under the "God is dead" banner.

    1870-1930 Marx and Darwin become the poster boys of skeptics everywhere and the vast majority of atheists see Communism as the salvation of the world and "the will of the people."

    But it's just another amazing coincidence I am sure.

    Rad
     
  10. armed2010

    armed2010 Well-Known Member

    +128
    Atheist
    US-Others
    Yes, because its impossible to believe that any human is capable of doing good without a higher being watching his ever move :doh:
     
  11. radorth

    radorth Contributor

    +162
    Non-Denom
    Yeah if you wanted a world with no private hospitals run by the U.N.

    We note the writer of this tripe gets to define "Christian" and "secular humanist" and doubtless considers himself the arbiter of any disagreement.

    Rad
     
  12. beyelzu

    beyelzu New Member

    58
    +4
    Atheist
    well, if atheists kill another couple of billion people maybe we could catch up with you christians.

    but the point you are avoiding is pretty simple.

    atheism is not a set of morals, but your bible does indeed have a set of morals that actually specifies murdering people for some pretty inane stuff* like working on the sabbath.

    now, secular humanism has more of a moral code and if you could point to a single secular humanist that has committed genocide the way the christians did in the new world, by all means do so.

    but until then you really dont have a leg to stand on.


    * I originally used a different word I forgot that cf has a g rating and adults here arent capable of using all language.
     
  13. armed2010

    armed2010 Well-Known Member

    +128
    Atheist
    US-Others
    Responding with insults normally means you have nothing to defend your position with.
     
  14. beyelzu

    beyelzu New Member

    58
    +4
    Atheist
    mabye you only do what's right so you wont burn in hell,

    but I do what is right because it is right.


    which is why only atheists and agnostics can truly be moral.



    well, really anyone who doesnt believe in some sort of reward punishment afterlife system.
     
  15. beyelzu

    beyelzu New Member

    58
    +4
    Atheist
    actually secular humanist and christian both have accepted meanings, and the author is using those accepted meanings.

    whining about definitions is pretty pointless.
     
  16. hordeprime

    hordeprime God loves Atheists.

    804
    +69
    Atheist
    Ah, the old "How many hospitals have atheists built?" argument:
    Some arguments, like wine, get better with age. Some, like cheese, just stink.
     
  17. radorth

    radorth Contributor

    +162
    Non-Denom
    Let's see. What was the OP again? Oh yes, that Freud provided a prime example of wishful thinking among skeptics and atheists, who were once becoming Communists faster than you could say "enlightenment" and who, once fully indoctrinated, did everything papa Stalin said without question.

    How frighteningly alike and subject to a murderous doctrine we all are.

    Rad
     
  18. radorth

    radorth Contributor

    +162
    Non-Denom
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Agreed.

    And here I was reading Seventh Day Adventist, when the sign actually read Seventh Day Atheist.

    My mistake.

    Rad
     
  19. Risen Tree

    Risen Tree previously Rising Tree

    +307
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    US-Democrat
    Best I stop this before it gets ugly.
     
  20. Didaskalos

    Didaskalos He is Lord Of ALL Supporter

    +896
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Absolutely nothing to do with Christian Apologetics.
    Rule #1
    This is an apologetics forum, for the purposes of this forum apologetics is defined as:

    This means that posts here should be at least resembling this topic. There are forums for fellowship such as the Friendship Court. Any non-apologetics threads will be moved or deleted at moderator discretion.
     
Loading...