PBS:Freud and his wishful thinking

radorth

Contributor
Jul 29, 2003
7,393
165
75
LA area
Visit site
✟16,044.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Watchhing the PBS special, I generally found Freud a thoughtful soul and obviously intelligent. However he made a major gaff which at first seems like profound insight and, on a moment's reflection is the product of a naive world-view.

Freud wants to believe so badly in human progress without God that he says of the Nazi's:

"A few hundred years ago they would have burned me, but now they are satisfied with burning my books."

Now just think about that. Was he where the Nazi's could get at him or around when they started the Holocaust? No. Would they have gassed and incinerated him if he had been? Of course they would have.

Here is the greatest irony- that his sister was later gassed and cremated in a Nazi death camp.

We are reminded, watching the program, of the things we discuss here, and which I think we discuss more thoroughly in some cases.

In this example I am reminded of the world-views of skeptics which so desperately want to find a ray of hope in history as Freud tried to do. Their faith that some "enlightenment" will prevent Armageddon is reallly more naive than the typical Christian worldview. We know human nature, from experience, from history and from the Bible.

The reality is that the Nazi's would have burned Freud in a second if they had had the chance in the 1940's and to agree with Freud is to ignore history in order to stay in your bubble. Freud died in the 30's and his and Bertrandt Russell's wishful thinking had absolutely no effect on history. In fact the century they thought to "enlighten" was the bloodiest, most murderous century in history by far, and not just from war but from the "enlightened" atheist dictators who murdered, starved, or worked to death 40,000,000 more people.

Rad
 

Mary of Bethany

Only one thing is needful.
Supporter
Jul 8, 2004
7,541
1,081
✟341,456.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Yes.

And I thought the people in the panel discussion who seem to think that our morality comes from our eons of experience as a species, and that we need nothing outside of ourselves, are victims of the same delusion.

As the broker (Holladay?) said - it's hard enough to try to love others as ourselves even with God's help, how can we even hope to do that without Him?
 
Upvote 0

Hairy Reasoner

Question Everything
Feb 22, 2004
280
43
Houston, TX
✟630.00
Faith
Atheist
I found the choice of Freud and Lewis to be odd choices. Freud had some pretty wacky ideas about psychology, which while innovative, are not taken particularly seriously anymore, and I find Lewis's thinking to amount to cherry picking ideas that support what he already believes, and it astonishes me that anyone would think that his arguments are compelling, esp. those put forth in Mere Christianity. Pitting these two guys against each other in a fictional debate is just silly. The panel discussion on that show was OK, but I've seen better discussions here and on iidb.org.
 
Upvote 0

radorth

Contributor
Jul 29, 2003
7,393
165
75
LA area
Visit site
✟16,044.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Yes in fact we have discussed some matters more thoroughly, I agree. However I am not sure they picked all the best insights of the two. Some of Lewis' insights are brilliant, for example his take on repentance:

"The more you need it, the less you can do it."

I doubt any thoughtful skeptics would disagree with that little gem, and of course it validates the Biblical view of sin and human weakness as few other 10 word statements have ever done. Overall, Lewis did better at revealing the ineffable, exposing the generic self-righteous nature of humans and the reasons history will ever repeat itself as well anybody ever has.

Sorry your Freud couldn't keep up and came off as so unrealistic.

Rad
 
Upvote 0

Arkanin

Human
Oct 13, 2003
5,592
287
40
Texas
✟7,151.00
Faith
Anglican
Politics
US-Libertarian
The reality is that the Nazi's would have burned Freud in a second if they had had the chance in the 1940's and to agree with Freud is to ignore history in order to stay in your bubble. Freud died in the 30's and his and Bertrandt Russell's wishful thinking had absolutely no effect on history. In fact the century they thought to "enlighten" was the bloodiest, most murderous century in history by far, and not just from war but from the "enlightened" atheist dictators who murdered, starved, or worked to death 40,000,000 more people.

What about the Christian nation that put jews in death camps? What about all the other history of the world, where Christians killed more people and fought more than anyone else? What about the spanish inquisition?

Does the fact that all of these things happened have any relevance whatsoever to the truth or worthiness of Christianity or atheism? What exactly is the point of this diatribe?
 
Upvote 0

radorth

Contributor
Jul 29, 2003
7,393
165
75
LA area
Visit site
✟16,044.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Arkanin said:
What about the Christian nation that put jews in death camps?
So Hitler was a Christian who hated Jews I guess. Bit of a stretch.

What about all the other history of the world, where Christians killed more people and fought more than anyone else? What about the spanish inquisition?
Excuse me. Stalin and Mao, two atheists, killed, murdered, starved or worked to death more people than all the wars of all religious people in history- many hundreds of times those killed by medieval "Christians" who by the way were totally ignorant of the New Testament.

But I guess you, applying the same logic, blame your children for all they do in ignorance. Of course if you want to compare informed Christians sins with atheist's atrocities, the numbers are even more unfavorable to you.

Does the fact that all of these things happened have any relevance whatsoever to the truth or worthiness of Christianity or atheism? What exactly is the point of this diatribe?
Diatribe? I would say the term applied much better to your comments. I am merely pointing out that Freud clearly engaged in wishful thinking, while Lewis came across as far more realistic in his world-view. Of course skeptics have no hope except in their personal version of "rational thinking" and some vain hope that it will change the world one day. Well it's been 150 years since Ingersoll started preaching it, and we just had by far our most destructive century.

Oh by the way, Freud was safe in London, among Christians, by 1939.

Rad
 
Upvote 0

hordeprime

God loves Atheists.
Feb 5, 2004
804
73
47
Glendale, CA
✟16,326.00
Faith
Atheist
radorth said:
Excuse me. Stalin and Mao, two atheists, killed, murdered, starved or worked to death more people than all the wars of all religious people in history- many hundreds of times those killed by medieval "Christians" who by the way were totally ignorant of the New Testament.
For anyone's reference, here is a good article debunking this common fallicious argument against atheism: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathm_nat_killed.htm

Also, from this article at Infidels.org:

(2.) The other three "atheists" (Lenin, Stalin, and Mao) all came out of the same fascist communist movement. Their atheism was not of philosophical reasoning or commitment to humanist and scientific values, but a dogmatic tenet of their political ideology. In fact, communism closely parallels religion in many regards. The religious intolerance of these men, their false worship of the collectivist state and blind faith in an inevitable communist paradise, should not be confused with secular or humanistic atheism, for the vast majority of atheists understand that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion, and will fight to their last breath for these freedoms.

(3.) Atheism has no position on oppression, or tyranny, or anything at all actually - except for the lack of belief in god(s). Atheism is not a comprehensive moral or philosophical system, nor does it pretend to be. To suggest that the aforementioned tyrants' actions were a consequence of their atheism is akin to suggesting that their actions were a consequence of their brown eyes.

Atheism per se has nothing to do with oppression, pro or con. Now, there is a movement widely known as Secular Humanism that is non-religious, mostly atheist, and that does provide a wider context for morality and philosophy. But Stalin, Lenin, and Mao Tse-tung were a far cry from secular humanists, and there are actually no Secular Humanist murderers on record--yet there are many Christian murderers who were nevertheless true believers. Can one then conclude that a Secular Humanist world would be any worse than a Christian one? Might one instead suggest the reverse?

(4.) Woodbridge and Strobel have just spent the entire chapter arguing that while particular Christians have acted tremendously evil at times, this should not turn us off to Christianity at large. Then they turn right around and try to use the same reasoning they have just assaulted against atheism. The hypocrisy is palpable.
And a favorite quote from Emmitt Fields:

"Communism, like Christianity, is an ideological force that is destructive to human rights and freedom."


While Christianity = Christ, I am thankful that atheism does not, in fact, = Stalin. :amen:
 
Upvote 0

radorth

Contributor
Jul 29, 2003
7,393
165
75
LA area
Visit site
✟16,044.00
Faith
Non-Denom
hordeprime said:
While Christianity = Christ,
Heh heh.

This is the same exact fallacy you claim I have used. Who said Christ ever approved of anything but nascent Christianity?

It's like saying Marx approved of Stalin, which I am honest enough to say is unlikely. But then you would say everyone who waves a flag is a patriot. Correct?

You really must read how Stalin became an atheist after reading Darwin.

Rad
 
Upvote 0

radorth

Contributor
Jul 29, 2003
7,393
165
75
LA area
Visit site
✟16,044.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Let's see:

!850-1875. "Enlightened" skeptics and atheists grow and multiply under the "God is dead" banner.

1870-1930 Marx and Darwin become the poster boys of skeptics everywhere and the vast majority of atheists see Communism as the salvation of the world and "the will of the people."

But it's just another amazing coincidence I am sure.

Rad
 
Upvote 0

armed2010

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2003
3,331
136
36
California
✟4,182.00
Faith
Atheist
Politics
US-Others
Mary of Bethany said:
Yes.

And I thought the people in the panel discussion who seem to think that our morality comes from our eons of experience as a species, and that we need nothing outside of ourselves, are victims of the same delusion.
Yes, because its impossible to believe that any human is capable of doing good without a higher being watching his ever move :doh:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

radorth

Contributor
Jul 29, 2003
7,393
165
75
LA area
Visit site
✟16,044.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Atheism per se has nothing to do with oppression, pro or con. Now, there is a movement widely known as Secular Humanism that is non-religious, mostly atheist, and that does provide a wider context for morality and philosophy. But Stalin, Lenin, and Mao Tse-tung were a far cry from secular humanists, and there are actually no Secular Humanist murderers on record--yet there are many Christian murderers who were nevertheless true believers. Can one then conclude that a Secular Humanist world would be any worse than a Christian one? Might one instead suggest the reverse?
Yeah if you wanted a world with no private hospitals run by the U.N.

We note the writer of this tripe gets to define "Christian" and "secular humanist" and doubtless considers himself the arbiter of any disagreement.

Rad
 
Upvote 0

beyelzu

Active Member
Jan 26, 2003
58
4
47
Visit site
✟198.00
Faith
Atheist
radorth said:
Let's see:

!850-1875. "Enlightened" skeptics and atheists grow and multiply under the "God is dead" banner.

1870-1930 Marx and Darwin become the poster boys of skeptics everywhere and the vast majority of atheists see Communism as the salvation of the world and "the will of the people."

But it's just another amazing coincidence I am sure.

Rad
well, if atheists kill another couple of billion people maybe we could catch up with you christians.

but the point you are avoiding is pretty simple.

atheism is not a set of morals, but your bible does indeed have a set of morals that actually specifies murdering people for some pretty inane stuff* like working on the sabbath.

now, secular humanism has more of a moral code and if you could point to a single secular humanist that has committed genocide the way the christians did in the new world, by all means do so.

but until then you really dont have a leg to stand on.


* I originally used a different word I forgot that cf has a g rating and adults here arent capable of using all language.
 
Upvote 0

beyelzu

Active Member
Jan 26, 2003
58
4
47
Visit site
✟198.00
Faith
Atheist
Mary of Bethany said:
Yes.

And I thought the people in the panel discussion who seem to think that our morality comes from our eons of experience as a species, and that we need nothing outside of ourselves, are victims of the same delusion.

As the broker (Holladay?) said - it's hard enough to try to love others as ourselves even with God's help, how can we even hope to do that without Him?
mabye you only do what's right so you wont burn in hell,

but I do what is right because it is right.


which is why only atheists and agnostics can truly be moral.



well, really anyone who doesnt believe in some sort of reward punishment afterlife system.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hordeprime
Upvote 0

beyelzu

Active Member
Jan 26, 2003
58
4
47
Visit site
✟198.00
Faith
Atheist
radorth said:
Yeah if you wanted a world with no private hospitals run by the U.N.

We note the writer of this tripe gets to define "Christian" and "secular humanist" and doubtless considers himself the arbiter of any disagreement.

Rad
actually secular humanist and christian both have accepted meanings, and the author is using those accepted meanings.

whining about definitions is pretty pointless.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hordeprime

God loves Atheists.
Feb 5, 2004
804
73
47
Glendale, CA
✟16,326.00
Faith
Atheist
radorth said:
Yeah if you wanted a world with no private hospitals run by the U.N.
Ah, the old "How many hospitals have atheists built?" argument:
Robert Ingersoll's response to the question, "What hospitals have Atheists built?" is surprisingly relevant over a hundred years later. Despite European Christians being on the American continent for hundreds of years, they have been lacking in providing the medical charity they are credited for. The answer to the question "How many American hospitals have Atheists built?" is "All of them."
Some arguments, like wine, get better with age. Some, like cheese, just stink.
 
Upvote 0

radorth

Contributor
Jul 29, 2003
7,393
165
75
LA area
Visit site
✟16,044.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Let's see. What was the OP again? Oh yes, that Freud provided a prime example of wishful thinking among skeptics and atheists, who were once becoming Communists faster than you could say "enlightenment" and who, once fully indoctrinated, did everything papa Stalin said without question.

How frighteningly alike and subject to a murderous doctrine we all are.

Rad
 
Upvote 0

radorth

Contributor
Jul 29, 2003
7,393
165
75
LA area
Visit site
✟16,044.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Robert Ingersoll's response to the question, "What hospitals have Atheists built?" is surprisingly relevant over a hundred years later. Despite European Christians being on the American continent for hundreds of years, they have been lacking in providing the medical charity they are credited for. The answer to the question "How many American hospitals have Atheists built?" is "All of them."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Some arguments, like wine, get better with age. Some, like cheese, just stink.
Agreed.

And here I was reading Seventh Day Adventist, when the sign actually read Seventh Day Atheist.

My mistake.

Rad
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
19,640
3,658
Midlands
Visit site
✟551,529.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Absolutely nothing to do with Christian Apologetics.
Rule #1
This is an apologetics forum, for the purposes of this forum apologetics is defined as:

:apologetics: a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity - Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
This means that posts here should be at least resembling this topic. There are forums for fellowship such as the Friendship Court. Any non-apologetics threads will be moved or deleted at moderator discretion.
 
Upvote 0