Paul's thorn in the flesh?

How important is HUMILITY in our getting into heaven and serving Jesus now?

  • Extremely important

    Votes: 5 62.5%
  • Not that important... we are saved by Grace alone

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • We cannot get into heaven without HUMILITY.

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Total voters
    8

DennisTate

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I don't know specifically what Paul's thorn in the flesh was in actuality but I just ran into an excellent analogy for what Paul's thorn in the flesh accomplished.

Dr. Kevin Zadai got to the place where he sure seems to have gotten a high level of guidance by the Holy Spirit but this guidance can be rough.

He was qualified as a pilot but.....
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus told him to work as a mere flight attendant for twenty nine years..... He absolutely HATED the job but he knows that doing this changed him so that he is now able to teach university level Theology courses for Mr. Andrew Wommack!

The relevant part is after the 41:00 mark in this video:

 
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DennisTate

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It seems to me that ever since the fall of Lucifer the Heavenly Father REFUSES to attempt to live in heaven with proud people or angels!

Isaiah 57
15: "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."
 
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Rescued One

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God makes us new creatures. If He wants obedient, humble people as His own, He qualifies them.

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

He is the Potter; we are the clay.
 
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Quasiblogo

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"Thorn in the flesh? Paul gives a strong indication in Galatians 4:12-15:

12 I beg you, brothers, become like me, for I also became like you. You did me no harm. 13 You know that, because of a weakness of the flesh, I preached the gospel to you the first time. 14 And you did not despise or disdain the test my flesh gave you. Instead, you welcomed me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15 So where is this blessed attitude of yours now? Yes, I can say for a fact that, if it were possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.

Sounds like that, from all the physical battering he took and hardships he endured, he was to the point of being disgusting to look at.

From the emotional point of view, even though "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1), Paul was likely subject to frequent bouts of fighting against the Enemy's accusations that he was a murderer and worse, given the way Paul persecuted the Way before his Damascus conversion. But, thanks be to God, Paul had more than adequate protection in the armor of God that he wore. And, he was not dragged down by the need to project some kind of physical impression. No, because he was one of those "who are not walking according to the flesh, but according to the spirit" (Romans 8:4).

Scripture quotations are from the Holy Bible, Evangelical Heritage Version® (EHV®) © 2019 Wartburg Project, Inc. All rights reserved. Used by permission
 
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Dave L

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It seems to me that ever since the fall of Lucifer the Heavenly Father REFUSES to attempt to live in heaven with proud people or angels!

Isaiah 57
15: "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."
Humility must come from the Holy Spirit. If we force ourselves to be humble it is hypocrisy, an act.
 
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DennisTate

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LOL. Knowing the OP as I do, I got confused and was seriousely expecting the hear the voice of God at the 41:00 mark.

No offense intended, Dennis.

This poor Dr. Kevin Zadai guy is having a seriously rough time........
In one of these lectures done at Dalton he talks about having this guy driving behind him who is so impatient that Dr. Zadai pulls off the road....... has a sandwich....... about twenty minutes later he pull out into traffic again...... and voila........ there is the same guy behind him again driving??????

I have a theory on that that is kind of funny..... and it sets up a possible major connection between us Christians with Orthodox and Chassidic Jews.........
no kidding........

Is it possible that there are devils..... followers of Azazel....... who still have serious connection in the kingdom UNDER the earth....... but they followed Azazel to as high a level of repentance as they can get to so far????????

So.... could Satan's kingdom already have been DIVIDED and fallen... due to the fulfillment of a major Yom Kippur event which is really an increase in the understanding of aspects of the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus coming to be better understood.......... that has led to the Repentance of a pretty major league fallen angel named Azazel???????

And both angels and devils may perhaps be cooperating to really, really, really annoy this poor Zadai guy??????

Could there be repentant and somewhat restored former fallen angels working with good angels to make absolutely certain that this poor Zadai guy doesn't get lifted up due to what he was shown during his near death experience???????

My conversation with the Rabbi.....
 
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DennisTate

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Humility must come from the Holy Spirit. If we force ourselves to be humble it is hypocrisy, an act.

You are absolutely correct...... we cannot force ourselves to have genuine humility with our great discipline and self control. But we can be rational enough to see that we may be proud and we can pray with chutzpah and ask for wisdom and to be granted humility because we strongly suspect that we have fallen into pride.

I did this back in 1988 and 1989 in a pretty serious way because I was noticing that myself and my old church....... it looked to me like we were getting close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit due to our being so competitive against other denominations that it became obvious that we were going far too far in our patting ourselves on the back and accusing other denominations!?
 
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Kenny'sID

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Is it possible that there are devils..... followers of Azazel....... who still have serious connection in the kingdom UNDER the earth....... but they followed Azazel to as high a level of repentance as they can get to so far????????

That could be a bit of a stretch, but I see where there seems to be indication of the possibility.

EDIT: Or is it more likely the other guy just stopped for gas and the timing was purely coincidental.
 
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DennisTate

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"Thorn in the flesh? Paul gives a strong indication in Galatians 4:12-15:

12 I beg you, brothers, become like me, for I also became like you. You did me no harm. 13 You know that, because of a weakness of the flesh, I preached the gospel to you the first time. 14 And you did not despise or disdain the test my flesh gave you. Instead, you welcomed me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15 So where is this blessed attitude of yours now? Yes, I can say for a fact that, if it were possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.

Sounds like that, from all the physical battering he took and hardships he endured, he was to the point of being disgusting to look at.

From the emotional point of view, even though "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1), Paul was likely subject to frequent bouts of fighting against the Enemy's accusations that he was a murderer and worse, given the way Paul persecuted the Way before his Damascus conversion. But, thanks be to God, Paul had more than adequate protection in the armor of God that he wore. And, he was not dragged down by the need to project some kind of physical impression. No, because he was one of those "who are not walking according to the flesh, but according to the spirit" (Romans 8:4).

Scripture quotations are from the Holy Bible, Evangelical Heritage Version® (EHV®) © 2019 Wartburg Project, Inc. All rights reserved. Used by permission


That is a brilliant theory!!!

12 I beseech you, brethren, become as I [am], for I also [am become] as ye [are]. Ye did me no wrong: 13 but ye know that because of an infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you the first time: 14 and that which was a temptation to you in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but ye received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus.

15 Where then is that gratulation of yourselves? for I bear you witness, that, if possible, ye would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me."

So you are thinking that he was quite nearsighted and was having problems writing letters with his own hand????
 
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DennisTate

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That could be a bit of a stretch, but I see where there seems to be indication of the possibility. Or is it more likely the other guy just stopped for gas and the timing was purely coincidental.


I believe that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is the greatest comedic genius in the universe / multiverse after the Ancient of Days the Father and The Holy Spirit and I suspect that He is using humour to get both angels as well as devils looking at all of us..........

.... and they know that they know that they know that they know that it is NOT our great wisdom, intelligence and great breeding that has set us Christians up for exaltation.......... and greater and greater levels of wisdom and genuine love for each other........ and for non-Christians who are behaving quite badly.

I think that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is producing a REality Film starring Dr. Kevin Zadai and his wife and the attention of angels and devils are on them........

and on all of his students..... because he seems to be really humble especially after his near death experience that really changed him profoundly.
 
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DennisTate

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God makes us new creatures. If He wants obedient, humble people as His own, He qualifies them.

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

He is the Potter; we are the clay.

Yes...... in my sixty years I can list my own stupidities.... followed by worse stupidities...... which led me to even greater levels of stupidities.......... but the whole thing turned out really really really good and the first few posts in this other discussion indicates how good things have gotten over these last two years.

It is kind of a joke in our house but when my wife asks me why I did something....... (in a particular tone of voice)......... I immediately answer that I did it because of Stupidity....... and she laughs because she knows that technically that is the correct answer.

2018 outpouring, are you feeling it? I am!
 
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DennisTate

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That could be a bit of a stretch, but I see where there seems to be indication of the possibility.

EDIT: Or is it more likely the other guy just stopped for gas and the timing was purely coincidental.


I could be wrong.... I often am.... but the way that things are working out in the life of Dr. Kevin Zadai indicates that the probability of this being mere coincidence is low!

For example....... I am seeing hidden meaning in a film starring Patrick Swayze that I think is highly unlikely to be mere coincidence......... (Swayze = Dalton and Zadai = Sam Elliott)..... but ... I have to admit that my own brain chemical mix is not exactly in the forty to sixty (normal) range??????
 
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Kenny'sID

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I could be wrong.... I often am.... but the way that things are working out in the life of Dr. Kevin Zadai indicates that the probability of this being mere coincidence is low!

I'll give you that...you are more familiar with the man than I am.
 
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How important is HUMILITY in our getting into heaven and serving Jesus now?

I think this is good answer: Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt. 23:12

But what do you think, if I say “yes, I have been humble, now exalt me God”, do I sound humble? :)
 
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DennisTate

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I think this is good answer: Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt. 23:12

But what do you think, if I say “yes, I have been humble, now exalt me God”, do I sound humble? :)

I believe that this subject is kind of confusing because knowing that you know that you know that Jesus has raised you up to the place where you are actually pretty good at certain things....... sounds like pride to us........ but denying utterly that we are good at anything is a form of a lack of FAITH in Messiah Yeshua - Jesus's power and ability to transform us over time.

As flawed as I am...... I felt that I had to campaign for public office over and over again as an independent even though entering a race as an independent is a sure fire way to lose an election. I only got forty one votes total in all four of my previous campaigns combined but........... i do feel that my campaign writings do have some value and could even be translated into side by side English - Spanish or English to French or English to virtually any other language and of course the cost to do this would be zero.... (or one dollar to make it legal just in case somebody wants to do something kind of official with this)..........
I had my former students at Universidad Technologica de Israel de Quito and at La Escuela Del Futuro in mind as I wrote all of these:


My 2006, my 2008 and my 2004 campaign writings by DennisTate.
 
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Francis Drake

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Paul's thorn in the flesh has suffered all sorts of odd interpretations, but once we realise that Paul is paraphrasing the OT (probably from the Septuagint), his words in 2Corinthians12 becomes clear.
Numbers33v55 55“ ‘But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live. 56And then I will do to you what I plan to do to them.’ ”

Paul equates our spiritual warfare to the real life bloody warfare of the OT. God instructed the Israelites to utterly drive out the existing inhabitants of the land, otherwise it would be trouble later, sometimes generations later. It was up to them to do it, and if they were disobedient or lazy about it, then God would simply leave these inhabitants to harass them, until they learned their lesson.

Likewise, Paul learned that it was up to him to drive out the demonic inhabitants in his land, his flesh in this case, after becoming a believer. God doesn't do it for us, that's why we need to understand deliverance.

Paul cried out to the Lord 3 times, and the only answer was, "My grace is sufficient for you, for the power is perfected in weakness". It is God's grace that places Paul, and ourselves in a higher authority than Satan and his demons. God wasn't refusing to heal Paul, merely instructing him in the power he had been given.

ie. Stop whining Paul, and kick them out!

God reinforces Number33v55 to the Israelites again.
Judges2v3"So now I tell you that I will not drive out these people before you; they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.”

These OT verses, and Paul's NT application are deep spiritual truth that we ignore at our peril. If we do not drive out the demonic entities in our lives, then they will remain and dominate our lives.
 
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DennisTate

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Paul's thorn in the flesh has suffered all sorts of odd interpretations, but once we realise that Paul is paraphrasing the OT (probably from the Septuagint), his words in 2Corinthians12 becomes clear.
Numbers33v55 55“ ‘But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live. 56And then I will do to you what I plan to do to them.’ ”

Paul equates our spiritual warfare to the real life bloody warfare of the OT. God instructed the Israelites to utterly drive out the existing inhabitants of the land, otherwise it would be trouble later, sometimes generations later. It was up to them to do it, and if they were disobedient or lazy about it, then God would simply leave these inhabitants to harass them, until they learned their lesson.

Likewise, Paul learned that it was up to him to drive out the demonic inhabitants in his land, his flesh in this case, after becoming a believer. God doesn't do it for us, that's why we need to understand deliverance.

Paul cried out to the Lord 3 times, and the only answer was, "My grace is sufficient for you, for the power is perfected in weakness". It is God's grace that places Paul, and ourselves in a higher authority than Satan and his demons. God wasn't refusing to heal Paul, merely instructing him in the power he had been given.

ie. Stop whining Paul, and kick them out!

God reinforces Number33v55 to the Israelites again.
Judges2v3"So now I tell you that I will not drive out these people before you; they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.”

These OT verses, and Paul's NT application are deep spiritual truth that we ignore at our peril. If we do not drive out the demonic entities in our lives, then they will remain and dominate our lives.

That is an excellent analogy!

I love it!
 
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