Paul was a true Apostle

[Standing Up]

In the other Pauline thread, the video made a couple of erroneous points that should be corrected. Here's three.

First, he talks about Paul after his conversion going to the house of Judas. He implies this "house" is like a lineage, like to the house of David. His point was to imply Paul goes to Judas the betrayer's house (lineage).

He neglects or is unaware that there is also another apostle of the Twelve called Judas.

Jn. 14:22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [Thaddeus, Mt. 10:3] the brother of James.

So, poor assumption without merit.

The second point is he worries about the "different" conversion accounts. I addressed this in the other thread. Basically, the first account is in third person and the other two in first person. They don't conflict.

The third point is Peter was sent to the gentiles and so was Paul. Sounds curious, right? Peter went first to Cornelius a gentile and opened the door to the kingdom with the key Christ had given him. Later, Barnabas goes to Tarsus (a flat basket) and gets Paul who had "failed" at Jerusalem and says what Jesus told you on the road to Damascus about going to the nations, God has begun at Antioch. Now get up and let's go. Paul no more usurps Peter's position than does any other preacher to the gentiles today.

 

[HisSparkPlug]

I don't know how anyone can deny the Apostle Paul was not a true apostle of God. I've studied this query - There are serious loop-holes and bunny trails which are off the wall. One truly needs to stretch their imagination in order to reject all the Pauline gospels.. It is only one of the great deceptions of the end days.

May the Lord keep His elect from deception.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't know how anyone can deny the Apostle Paul was not a true apostle of God. I've studied this query - There are serious loop-holes and bunny trails which are off the wall. One truly needs to stretch their imagination in order to reject all the Pauline gospels.. It is only one of the great deceptions of the end days.

May the Lord keep His elect from deception.

Absolutely!

I watched the first few minutes of the clip - mainly because it was playing while I was writing a reply - and as far as I could tell the guy was citing extra Biblical sources and numerology for his "proof".
I just focussed on their statement that Paul was an apostle of Satan and reminded people that Paul preached the cross, Spiritual warfare and defeat of Satan; things which Satan doesn't want anyone to know. I received a reply saying that Paul changed the Gospel into something that Jesus wouldn't recognise - but as yet, they've been unable to back up their claim.

 

[Frogster]

A giant Amen!

it s just like how the same crowd, like to act like Phoebe was paul's pastor!

 

[timewerx]

Let's go to the teachings then:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

What really saves? Believing Jesus is raised from the dead or doing the Will of God? I'm confused!

And people can call on His name even if they don't believe!

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


Romans 10:15
And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!

Wrong! False prophets can preach even if they are not sent by God?

Matthew 24:11
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

BTW, does anyone here knows what God's Will is? You don't get it via a dream or a vision or an angel coming from Heaven telling you what to do or reading it from books other than the Bible. God's Will is laid clearly in the four Gospels. The life that Jesus lived is God's Will!

 

[Standing Up]

Let's go to the teachings then:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

What really saves? Believing Jesus is raised from the dead or doing the Will of God? I'm confused!-snip-

What'd Jesus or Peter say?

Lk. 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

You're thinking Romans 10:9 is different in some way?

 

[football5680]

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16)

This short passage proves two points which shows Saint Paul was a true apostle.

The first is that Saint Peter said that Paul was an apostle so if we can't trust what Peter said then we should throw our Christianity away because this is who Jesus built his church upon and he was one of the original 12. Jesus didn't leave us a book, he left us his apostles. If you say I can't trust what Peter said then I can't trust anybody.

The second point is that this proves that some people will misinterpret what Saint Paul was saying. If you think that Saint Paul and Jesus contradict one another then you do not understand what is actually being said. People abuse the letters of Saint Paul to fit their own personal theology because they do not understand the target audience and historical context. The Churches that Saint Paul communicated with had entirely different problems and he addressed the specific problem in his letters. So if one church had a problem with Judaizers then Saint Paul would combat that problem and speak against works of the law, not simply works which has led many people astray. If another church had more of a problem with Pagans then he would speak against idolatry. You must also have a firm understanding of the Old Testament as well and interpret it within that view as well.

 

[Standing Up]

Here's a test.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

What did Paul say?

1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Rom. 1:3-4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

So yeah, Paul preached Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Therefore he is of God.

 

[ARBITER01]

Let's go to the teachings then:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

What really saves? Believing Jesus is raised from the dead or doing the Will of God? I'm confused!

And people can call on His name even if they don't believe!

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


Romans 10:15
And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!

Wrong! False prophets can preach even if they are not sent by God?

Matthew 24:11
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

BTW, does anyone here knows what God's Will is? You don't get it via a dream or a vision or an angel coming from Heaven telling you what to do or reading it from books other than the Bible. God's Will is laid clearly in the four Gospels. The life that Jesus lived is God's Will!

I've seen atheist's with a better understanding of the word than this.

Is this a joke?

 

[timewerx]

Here's a test

............
............

So yeah, Paul preached Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Therefore he is of God.

Let's prove your test then, shall we?

I therefore confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh....

....I come with the message that you are free to sin in any manner you wish. You are free to break all of the 10 commandments on a daily basis, you can live in hatred of God, you can even be more wicked than the most evil man alive and even if you don't ask for forgiveness, you'll still go to heaven anyway and God will welcome you to Heaven with open arms and say to you "well done my child, my faithful servant".

Would you believe everything that I have said then to be true? After all, I have first confessed that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh

Is the test of 1 John 4:1-3 any good??

Is there any other methods of testing the spirits you know we could demonstrate and see if it works?

 

[Strong in Him]

Let's go to the teachings then:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

What really saves? Believing Jesus is raised from the dead or doing the Will of God? I'm confused!

Romans 10:14 doesn't say anything about doing the will of God. But in any case, Jesus made it clear, in John 6:40, that God's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes will be saved.

And people can call on His name even if they don't believe!

But Paul says we need to believe in our hearts - deep down; we need to know for an absolute certainty that Jesus was raised from the dead. Why? Partly because it means he is alive today and he conquered death. But mostly because the resurrection proved that Jesus was who he said he was; God, Saviour, Messiah, someone who had the authority to heal, forgive sins, cast out demons and call God his Father. Had Jesus really been the blasphemer the Jews said he was - a mere man who believed himself to be equal with God - God would have left him in the grave.

Romans 10:15
And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news![/COLOR]

Wrong! False prophets can preach even if they are not sent by God?

But in the context of the passage it means anyone who preaches the Good News that Jesus is Lord and was raised from the dead. And if false prophets aren't sent by God, then he won't recognise their deeds or fruit. So it may look as though their message is authentic, if they manage to gain lots of followers, but that doesn't mean that God is in that message, with that group or that he has given his Spirit or authority to those "prophets".

BTW, does anyone here knows what God's Will is?

I think there are two aspects to God's will.
The first is his will for everyone and is the same - that people believe in and accept his Son and receive eternal life. (John 6:40 - already quoted.) Besides this, God's will, in Scripture, is always about being:
Be reconciled to God, (2 Cor 5:20).
"It is God's will that you should be holy" (1 Thess 4:3)
"Be joyful always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus."

But I believe also that God has a plan for each believer - something he wants each of us to do with the gifts and blessings he has given to us. This will be different for each person; even though many may be given a particular ministry, they will all do it differently and bring different gifts, and experiences, to it.

God's Will is laid clearly in the four Gospels. The life that Jesus lived is God's Will!

No. Jesus lived a perfect life; we can't. Obviously God wants us to live for him, be his witnesses and teach about him but trying to be perfect, and in our own strength, is impossible and will not save us or get us to heaven. God's will is simply that we receive Jesus - that we believe in who he was and what he said and did, accept that he was God's Son who died for our sins and is the only way to the Father. That's what both Jesus, and Paul, taught.

 

[Strong in Him]

Let's prove your test then, shall we?

I therefore confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh....

....I come with the message that you are free to sin in any manner you wish. You are free to break all of the 10 commandments on a daily basis, you can live in hatred of God, you can even be more wicked than the most evil man alive and even if you don't ask for forgiveness, you'll still go to heaven anyway and God will welcome you to Heaven with open arms and say to you "well done my child, my faithful servant".

Context, context, context.

John was writing to encourage Christians in the faith and also to oppose the teaching of Gnosticism. Gnostics believed, among other things, that as God was Spirit, and good, pure and holy, anything that wasn't Spirit - i.e the human body, flesh, matter - was not good but was corrupt and impure. Which means they had no trouble believing that Jesus existed and that he was God, but they could not acknowledge that God came and inhabited a human body; they did not believe that the Word became flesh. They saw Jesus as some kind of spirit-being who couldn't feel pain, and other emotions, and therefore couldn't have been nailed to the cross and died. And anyone who teaches that Jesus did not offer his life as a sacrifice for our sins; the only act that could reconcile us to God forever, is not from God. Jesus himself said that if people knew his Father then they would know him too, and if they knew God they would accept his Son.
John is saying in his letter that Jesus was God and man, God's anointed and chosen One. He says in chapter 1 "we know this is true - the One who was from the beginning (eternal) really became man; we SAW and touched him."

So, if a person really believed that Jesus was, and is, God, that everything he said and claimed was true, that he is the only way to the Father, the giver of eternal life, that he was the perfect Lamb of God who died for the sins of the world (John 1:29) and that anyone who confessed their sins, received him and was born again - if they believed that Jesus was like us in every way, except that he was without sin; they would not be able to say that we could live exactly how we wanted, be as sinful as we liked and go to heaven without repenting. Such teaching would be totally contrary to their beliefs and what they KNEW to be true, and I doubt they could teach it, unless they were a liar without a conscience or a hypocrite.

Would you believe everything that I have said then to be true? After all, I have first confessed that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh

But the Gnostics believed that Jesus was God yet were denying that God could become man, meaning that they denied the cross. You may very well believe that Jesus WAS both God and man, therefore you are not starting from the same place as they were. The test of whether someone is from God, and their words are from God, is what do they believe about Jesus? Do they believe, and teach, that he was the eternal Word who became flesh, only a man and not God, or only God, not a man and therefore did not die on the cross? And if someone completely accepts Jesus, the God/man, that he taught what he heard from his Father and WAS the truth, then they would not be able to teach that a person can lead a sinful life, not repent, commit all kinds of evil and still expect to be in heaven.

"Who do you say that I am"? (Mark 8:29) is still the most important question for all of us today.

 

[timewerx]

But the Gnostics believed that Jesus was God yet were denying that God could become man, meaning that they denied the cross. You may very well believe that Jesus WAS both God and man, therefore you are not starting from the same place as they were. The test of whether someone is from God, and their words are from God, is what do they believe about Jesus? Do they believe, and teach, that he was the eternal Word who became flesh, only a man and not God, or only God, not a man and therefore did not die on the cross?

I appreciate your extensive explanation of the matter.

So I guess 1 John 4:1 is simply no longer applicable in our time since Gnosticism has largely fallen to obscurity.

And if someone completely accepts Jesus, the God/man, that he taught what he heard from his Father and WAS the truth, then they would not be able to teach that a person can lead a sinful life, not repent, commit all kinds of evil and still expect to be in heaven.

This is true if they genuinely believe the totality of Jesus.

But the problem has always been this: Anyone can make such claim even if they're not really what they claim to be.

For example, I can say I completely accept Jesus etc etc etc....

...And then [insert the most evil false teachings here]

Do you know how do I test anyone to determine if they are a false teacher or not?

It's in my sig... "Trust no one, analyze everything" It means I don't fall for anyone who says I confess Jesus, etc, etc... I must sit through their teaching, listen to every word they say and see that every idea, every word they say does not contradict the logic of Jesus in His teachings in the first narrative.

It doesn't end there btw.... I test anyone all the time. Just because their preaching passed the test in day 1, doesn't mean it's okay not to test them anymore in day 2.

If you know something about cults. They may seem nice and nothing extraordinary in their teachings in day 1. And slowly but surely, they add something wrong little by little as the days go by. And at the end of it, you've gone cult and you never saw it coming!

I'm afraid "modern Christianity" may have gone the same route, corrupted little by little through the years and most people don't know what hit them!

 

[Rick Otto]

I've seen atheist's with a better understanding of the word than this.

Is this a joke?

Please stop being rude.
Address a point with good reasoning or be silent.

 

[timewerx]

Please stop being rude.
Address a point with good reasoning or be silent.

Totally appreciate you standing up to my defense.

No offense was taken from Arbiter however! It's simply not worth responding to.

 

[ARBITER01]

Please stop being rude.
Address a point with good reasoning or be silent.

Maybe you should mind your own business there,.. friend.

Truth is never rude. The guy can't rightly divide a bit scripture to save anyone, let alone himself, and most likely he needs to pursue the baptism of The Holy Spirit, or otherwise he will remain this way.

That's the truth of the matter. The amount of folks that come here wanting to debate everyone just to make a point, armed with nothing more than their fleshly mind, is getting worse.

That's not rude, that's truthful.

 

[Frogster]

[

 

[Frogster]

Let's go to the teachings then:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

What really saves? Believing Jesus is raised from the dead or doing the Will of God? I'm confused!
And people can call on His name even if they don't believe!

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


Romans 10:15
And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!

Wrong! False prophets can preach even if they are not sent by God?

Matthew 24:11
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

BTW, does anyone here knows what God's Will is? You don't get it via a dream or a vision or an angel coming from Heaven telling you what to do or reading it from books other than the Bible. God's Will is laid clearly in the four Gospels. The life that Jesus lived is God's Will!

you mention the will of God?

lookie here>>>>>

It confirms Romans...who believes is saved...it is THE WILL....hehehehe..

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


MORE>>>

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.


Not to mention you were shown in Acts 15, where peter said faith and grace, like Paul.

Oh my, Peter agrees with Paul too!


1 Peter 2:6
For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[Frogster]

I appreciate your extensive explanation of the matter.

So I guess 1 John 4:1 is simply no longer applicable in our time since Gnosticism has largely fallen to obscurity.



This is true if they genuinely believe the totality of Jesus.

But the problem has always been this: Anyone can make such claim even if they're not really what they claim to be.

For example, I can say I completely accept Jesus etc etc etc....

...And then [insert the most evil false teachings here]

Do you know how do I test anyone to determine if they are a false teacher or not?

It's in my sig... "Trust no one, analyze everything" It means I don't fall for anyone who says I confess Jesus, etc, etc... I must sit through their teaching, listen to every word they say and see that every idea, every word they say does not contradict the logic of Jesus in His teachings in the first narrative.

It doesn't end there btw.... I test anyone all the time. Just because their preaching passed the test in day 1, doesn't mean it's okay not to test them anymore in day 2.

If you know something about cults. They may seem nice and nothing extraordinary in their teachings in day 1. And slowly but surely, they add something wrong little by little as the days go by. And at the end of it, you've gone cult and you never saw it coming!

I'm afraid "modern Christianity" may have gone the same route, corrupted little by little through the years and most people don't know what hit them!

False teacher? Gee, priscilla and aquilla in Acts 18, knew their bibles well enough to instruct apollos about God, yet they were with Paul. Did they not know a false teacher, did they not know the scriptures? Why did they fall for this guy Paul?


Loo at the fruit of their knowledege here>>>

Acts 18:28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.





Gee...more scripture people..they did not know their bibles either, to see if Paul was not scriptural.


2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


wow..these people did not know their bibles well enough to see if Paul was correct?

 

[Frogster]

I appreciate your extensive explanation of the matter.

So I guess 1 John 4:1 is simply no longer applicable in our time since Gnosticism has largely fallen to obscurity.



This is true if they genuinely believe the totality of Jesus.

But the problem has always been this: Anyone can make such claim even if they're not really what they claim to be.

For example, I can say I completely accept Jesus etc etc etc....

...And then [insert the most evil false teachings here]

Do you know how do I test anyone to determine if they are a false teacher or not?

It's in my sig... "Trust no one, analyze everything" It means I don't fall for anyone who says I confess Jesus, etc, etc... I must sit through their teaching, listen to every word they say and see that every idea, every word they say does not contradict the logic of Jesus in His teachings in the first narrative.

It doesn't end there btw.... I test anyone all the time. Just because their preaching passed the test in day 1, doesn't mean it's okay not to test them anymore in day 2.

If you know something about cults. They may seem nice and nothing extraordinary in their teachings in day 1. And slowly but surely, they add something wrong little by little as the days go by. And at the end of it, you've gone cult and you never saw it coming!

I'm afraid "modern Christianity" may have gone the same route, corrupted little by little through the years and most people don't know what hit them!

I guess james did not know his bible either as here he is agreeing with his beloved brother Paul, who risked his life for the Lord, said by james in Acts 15 who agreed with Paul and Peter, about the gospel.


15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,