Paul waits as should you

[IT REALLY SAYS]

2thess 1:7 paul asked us to wait with them until Jesus is Revealed from heaven with his mighty angels...

Anyone can see from study that when Jesus comes during the tribulation that He comes on the clouds with his mighty angels.

The 2 men in acts 1 are watching Jesus depart on the clouds and the 2 angels tell them Jesus will come back the same way being seen on the clouds, again the angels speak of the tribulation rapture and tell the believers of the same rapture paul waits for......


But todays believers say no were not gonna wait with paul for that time as were going as soon as we die or in the pre trib rapture...

But this isnt what paul teaches....

Not to mention in 2:1-3 where paul warns people not to believe the rapture comes before the man of sin comes - this warns believers Not to believe in a pre trib rapture....

The church has changed the teaching according to paul....

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi It Really Says, first off, WELCOME TO CF ..

As for the thread you've opened, I'm having a little trouble figuring out what you are pointing out and/or asking? You said:

2thess 1:7 paul asked us to wait with them until Jesus is Revealed from heaven with his mighty angels...

But todays believers say no were not gonna wait with paul for that time as were going as soon as we die or in the pre trib rapture...

But this isnt what paul teaches....

Not to mention in 2:1-3 where paul warns people not to believe the rapture comes before the man of sin comes - this warns believers Not to believe in a pre trib rapture....

The church has changed the teaching according to paul....

Your thread is obviously concerned with what you believe is heresy (a "Pre-Trib" rapture), but I am confused about the "waiting" part. What do you mean by, "todays believers say no were not gonna wait with paul for that time as were going as soon as we die"

1. Where is Paul waiting?

2. Where are "today's believers" claiming they will be going as soon as they die?
​

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[rockytopva]

2thess 1:7 paul asked us to wait with them until Jesus is Revealed from heaven with his mighty angels...

Anyone can see from study that when Jesus comes during the tribulation that He comes on the clouds with his mighty angels.

The 2 men in acts 1 are watching Jesus depart on the clouds and the 2 angels tell them Jesus will come back the same way being seen on the clouds, again the angels speak of the tribulation rapture and tell the believers of the same rapture paul waits for......


But todays believers say no were not gonna wait with paul for that time as were going as soon as we die or in the pre trib rapture...

But this isnt what paul teaches....

Not to mention in 2:1-3 where paul warns people not to believe the rapture comes before the man of sin comes - this warns believers Not to believe in a pre trib rapture....

The church has changed the teaching according to paul....

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, -2 Thess 1:6-7

Interesting scripture. We can rest in the Lord until that day happens.

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

St worm 2 says:
1. Where is Paul waiting?
2. Where are "today's believers" claiming they will be going as soon as they die

Reply: the purpose is to show that (most) christians are taught that when die they go to be with Jesus Or when the pre trib rapture happens, but pauls tells us to wait with them until the tribulation rapture..... and the churches teach it not...

As far as where is paul waiting (another post) but it is the same place acts 2 tells us that david has Not ascended into heaven - he is resting waiting till Christ comes to be glorified in all his saints (2thes 1:10)

 

[St_Worm2]

St worm 2 says:
1. Where is Paul waiting?
2. Where are "today's believers" claiming they will be going as soon as they die

Reply: the purpose is to show that (most) christians are taught that when die they go to be with Jesus Or when the pre trib rapture happens, but pauls tells us to wait with them until the tribulation rapture..... and the churches teach it not...

As far as where is paul waiting (another post) but it is the same place acts 2 tells us that david has Not ascended into heaven - he is resting waiting till Christ comes to be glorified in all his saints (2thes 1:10)

Hi IRS, the doctrine of soul sleep isn't taught by the church because the Bible tells us it's not true. Here's some of what the Lord and His Apostles John and Paul have to say about it (I'll comment below the passages).

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.​

Clearly, our existence during the Intermediate State (IOW, between death and Judgment) is a conscious one, because how can any of this be true if the souls of the dead are unconscious/lifeless until the Great White Throne (in the case of the reprobate), or the Bema Seat Judgment and Glory in the case of the saints?

How can those who are absent from the body make it their aim to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as they would be in life), if they are not conscious when they are with Him in death?

How could St. Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ (rather than laboring on in the flesh and the faith here for the sake of the saints), if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying interred in an unconscious state?

And how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice" and talk with both Abraham and God if their souls are just as lifeless as their dead bodies are in the ground

It's because of passages such as these that the church, all of it, has continued to teach what it has for millennia now, IOW, that the doctrine of the "sleep of the soul" is heretical ..

Yours and His,
David

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

If there is no soul sleep answer this please,
1. in Acts 2 it says David has Not ascened into to heaven where is david?

2. In John 11:11 When Jesus tells the disciples that lazerath (whos dead) is sleeping and the disciples think hes taking a nap so Jesus tells them he is dead, to Jesus he was sleeping while to the disciples he was dead......

3. In Daniel 12:1 speaks of the that everyone whose in the book of life will be delievered and in 12:2 it says and many of them who sleep will be awaken to everlasting life, who are those who sleep and are awaken to everlasting life?

4. In Rev 14:13 who are the blessed who will rest when they die, are these who rest when they die saved or not?

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

In Acts 13:36 david dies and sees corruption and has not asceneded into heaven....

In 1Cor 15:51 when it says we shall not all sleep. Who are those who sleep?

2thess 1:7 when paul ask you to wait with him until Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels which is the tribulation rapture. Where is paul since he isnt in heaven with Christ? Paul is dead and he is where?

In Rev 6:11 those who have been killed are told to rest until more saints are killed.... (btw this altar is in jerusalem not heaven)

In Rev 14:13 just like daniel we see here Christ being told it is time by the angel who comes out of temple (from God) and Jesus on the clouds (rapture) goes and reaps the believers who sleep and also like daniel the unbelievers....

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

And I believe you have? 1 scripture to prove your in heaven? Absent from the body is present with the Lord?

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

By one verse I didnt see it on your list... dont think..

Luke 16 - so you think lazarus is where?

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

2 cor 5 doesnt say when your absent from the body
Phil 1 - you die (sleep) and are not aware of anything so its as if you die and theres Jesus.... but when paul says to Wait with them Until Jesus is revealed in the tribulation rapture is a known future event..... your verse is not clear cut as this is.

And theres one verse that tells us when were absent from the body.....

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

When are we absent from the body at death?

1Cor 42-44
42 this is about believers being raised incorrupted - that would be their bodies
43 sown in dishoner (body) raised in honor
44 shown (in ground at death) a natural body and raised a spiritual body.

And when are these old bodies EXCHANGED for tye spiritual body?
51-52 when the dead who sleep are awakened and those who are alive at Christ coming are caught up together to be with Chrit forever...

Now tell me, does this not show you that you dont get your new body when you die but you sleep - wait with paul and david for daniel 12:2 when some are awaken to life and some to death... thats the tribulation rapture coming of Christ when you get your new body.....

So again who is awakened to everlasting life thats sleeping and caught up with those who are alive at his coming...

Btw tye twinkle in an eye also cant be used for disappearing during a pre trib rapture.... this is about how fast tye body is changed and nothing else...

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi IRS, I have no desire to further debate that which the entire Christian church (IOW, Catholics, EOC, Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists, etc.) considers heresy. The church teaches what the Bible does about the Intermediate State (a very small portion of which you'll find above in post #5).

You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want to believe

--David

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

Hi IRS, I have no desire to further debate that which the entire Christian church (IOW, Catholics, EOC, Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists, etc.) considers heresy. The church teaches what the Bible does about the Intermediate State (a very small portion of which you'll find above in post #5).

You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want to believe

--David

lol..really? Then why did you even answer at all?
So what is meant when it says to always be ready to defend the faith? And ofcourse you like others Never tackle the scriptures which say thats not true and that I gave above.

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

So when paul says wait with them until what is as everyone knows the Tribulation rapture and yet you say the churches dont teach this so your not about to check it out and see why it says this? Who is wrong paul or the churches?

 

[St_Worm2]

lol..really? Then why did you even answer at all?

Hi again IRS, well, let's review. I had trouble following your OP, so I asked you questions to clear that up and you did.

Thank you!

Once I realized it was the sleep of the soul you were promoting, I showed you several passages that demonstrate why such a belief cannot be true.

That's why I "answered"

You continue:

So what is meant when it says to always be ready to defend the faith?

I've already done that. See post #5 above. You continue:

And of course you like others Never tackle the scriptures which say thats not true and that I gave above.

Once I understood that it was the doctrine of "soul sleep" that was in view, I showed, with Scripture passages as examples, why the entire church and all of its theologians over millennia continue to hold that doctrine as heretical. It's you who chose not to "tackle the Scriptures" presented to you

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

Who is wrong paul or the churches?

Neither. Your understanding of what is being taught in v7 is however!

 

[Douggg]

St worm 2 says:
1. Where is Paul waiting?
2. Where are "today's believers" claiming they will be going as soon as they die

Reply: the purpose is to show that (most) christians are taught that when die they go to be with Jesus Or when the pre trib rapture happens, but pauls tells us to wait with them until the tribulation rapture..... and the churches teach it not...

As far as where is paul waiting (another post) but it is the same place acts 2 tells us that david has Not ascended into heaven - he is resting waiting till Christ comes to be glorified in all his saints (2thes 1:10)

David's body has not been resurrected like Jesus's body was resurrected. David's body is still in the grave.

David's soul was in the place of the dead, the righteous side, until Jesus, during the 3 days his body was dead, went to that place, set the captives free - which it has to be assumed preached the gospel message - which David's soul is now in heaven.

Since that first emptying of the place of the dead; that place called hell has been filling up again. It will not be emptied again, until the great white throne judgement and the second resurrection (of the millennial period).

The place, hell, itself will be destroyed, no longer having a function, cast into the lake of fire, as well as death.
_____________________________________________________

When the resurrection/rapture takes place the dead in Christ, meaning the bodies of them who are Christians who have died up to then, will be resurrected.

The soul though of a Christian is borne again, when a person receives Jesus, believes up on him. Being born again is by the Holy Spirit who comes and lives in a Christian's soul, imparting life to it, and conforming the person to the image of Christ.

So when a Christian dies, the soul goes to be with Jesus, and has some sort of interim body. Awaiting the day, when these corruptible bodies of ours will be changed incorruptible. For them who have died in Christ, it will be the resurrection of their bodies. Of them who are alive at that time - it will be the rapture.

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

Sorry but what you say isnt true, when acts was written david had not went to heaven and this was long after your so called Jesus setting people free from hell.... christians do you forget paul tells you to wait until the tribulation rapture? Pauls not in heaven but only in your tranditions of men beliefs....

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

Doug says the soul goes to be with Jesus at death YET Paul says thats not true.... yet daniel 12:1-2 says thats not true... yet rev 14:14-17 says thats not true......

 

[IT REALLY SAYS]

Hi again IRS, well, let's review. I had trouble following your OP, so I asked you questions to clear that up and you did.

Thank you!

Once I realized it was the sleep of the soul you were promoting, I showed you several passages that demonstrate why such a belief cannot be true.

That's why I "answered"

You continue:



I've already done that. See post #5 above. You continue:



Once I understood that it was the doctrine of "soul sleep" that was in view, I showed, with Scripture passages as examples, why the entire church and all of its theologians over millennia continue to hold that doctrine as heretical. It's you who chose not to "tackle the Scriptures" presented to you

Yours and His,
David

But yet the scripture I give says otherwise and you have yet to answer it.....