Paul Teaches from the TaNaK: Romans 3

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Continued from: Paul Teaches from the TaNaK: Romans 2

Romans 3
CLV(i) 1 What, then, is the prerogative of the Jew, or what the benefit of circumcision? 2 Much in every manner. For first, indeed, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God." 3 For what if some disbelieve? Will not their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 May it not be coming to that! Now let God be true, yet every man a liar, even as it is written: "That so Thou shouldst be justified in Thy sayings, And shalt be conquering when Thou art being judged."

(CLV) Ps 51:4
Against You, against You alone have I sinned And done what is evil in Your eyes, So that You may be found righteous when You speak, And be cleared when You judge.


5 Now if our injustice is commending God's righteousness, what shall we declare? Not that God Who is bringing on indignation is unjust! (As a man am I saying it.)" 6 May it not be coming to that! Else how shall God be judging the world? 7 Yet if the truth of God superabounds in my lie, for His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner, 8 and why not say, according as we are calumniated and according as some are averring that we are saying, that "We should be doing evil that good may be coming"? - whose judgment is fair." 9 What, then? Are we privileged? Undoubtedly not, for we previously charge both Jews and Greeks to be all under sin, 10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just- not even one." 11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God. 12 All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!"

(CLV) Ps 14:1
The decadent one says in his heart, There is no Elohim. They have become corrupt and abhorrent in activity; There is no one doing good.
(CLV) Ps 14:2
Yahweh, He gazes down from the heavens on the sons of humanity, To see whether there is anyone acting intelligently, Anyone seeking after Elohim.
(CLV) Ps 14:3
All withdraw aside; Together they are spoiled. There is no one doing good; There is not even one.

(CLV) Ps 53:1
The decadent one says in his heart, There is no Elohim. They have become corrupt and abhorrent with iniquity; There is no one doing good.
(CLV) Ps 53:2
Elohim, He gazes down from the heavens on the sons of humanity, To see whether there is anyone acting intelligently, Anyone seeking after Elohim.
(CLV) Ps 53:3
Everyone has turned away; Together they are spoiled. There is no one doing good; There is not even one.

(CLV) Ec 7:20
For there is no righteous man in the earth Who does good and never |sins.

13 A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud."The venom of asps is under their lips."

(CLV) Ps 5:9
For there is nothing established in their mouth; Within them are woes; A sepulcher opened is their throat; With their tongue they deal slickly.

(CLV) Ps 140:3
They whet their tongue like a serpent; The venom of an asp is under their lips.


14 Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed.

(CLV) Ps 10:7
His mouth is full of imprecation, with deceit and fraud; Under his tongue are misery and lawlessness.


15 Sharp are their feet to shed blood.

(CLV) Pr 1:16
For their feet run to evil, And they hasten to shed blood.


16 Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways, 17 And the way of peace they do not know."

(CLV) Isa 59:8
The way of peace they do not know, And there is no right judgment in their rounds; They have made their tracks perverted for themselves; Anyone treading in them knows not peace.


18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

(CLV) Ps 36:1
The wicked one ›has a watchword of transgression within his heart; There is no awe of Elohim in front of his eyes;


19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law (TORAH), that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God, 20 because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin." 21 Yet now, apart from law (TORAH), a righteousness of God

(CLV) Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.

So from the beginning we have the word of YHWH who was subordinate to YHWH.


is manifest (being attested by the law (TORAH) and the prophets),

YHWH attests to his own word in the TaNaK through Moses and the Prophets. Yahshua is the word. Yahshua walked the Earth as YHWH's Torah in the flesh.

(CLV) Jn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.


22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,

The written Torah testifies of Yahshua. Yahshua testifies of the written Torah.

23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. 24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" 25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, (tabernacle) through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God), 26 toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus." 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? 28 Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is He the god of the Jews only? Is He not of the nations also? 30 Yes, of the nations also, if so be that God is One, Who will be justifying the Circumcision out of faith and the Uncircumcision through faith." 31 Are we, then, nullifying law (Torah) through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law (Torah)."

Paul Teaches from the TaNaK: Romans 4
 

Carl Emerson

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(CLV) Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.

So from the beginning we have the word of YHWH who was subordinate to YHWH.

Are you saying that main stream translations are wrong?

How do you know CLV is more accurate?

Your conclusion has diminished the rightful place of Jesus in the Godhead.

There is little less serious than changing the very hub of the faith.

So you are teaching Jesus is not God...

That is very serious.
 
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HARK!

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Are you saying that main stream translations are wrong?

How do you know CLV is more accurate?

Your conclusion has diminished the rightful place of Jesus in the Godhead.

There is little less serious than changing the very hub of the faith.

So you are teaching Jesus is not God...

That is very serious.

I'm teaching no such thing. Yahshua is the word of Elohim; and Elohim is the word.

So we have YHWH's word, that is distinct from YHWH, but with YHWH.

Yahshua is not YHWH. To say otherwise is a non-Trinitarian stance IMO. Non-Trinitarian teachings are prohibited in the Christian-only forums.

Please be advised.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I'm teaching no such thing. Yahshua is the word of Elohim; and Elohim is the word.

So we have YHWH's word, that is distinct from YHWH, but with YHWH.

Yahshua is not YHWH. To say otherwise is a non-Trinitarian stance IMO. Non-Trinitarian teachings are prohibited in the Christian-only forums.

Please be advised.

Are you comfortable then with the better known rendering "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"?
 
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HARK!

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Are you comfortable then with the better known rendering "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"?

I haven't really delved into the translation of that particular verse.

Here is a rendering of the Greek text as it was written, with the CLV translation:

Jn1_1.png


Notice the distinction between ton theon, and theos. When we see ton theon, it speaks of the Father.

Now exactly what problem do you have with the CLV, in comparison to your favorite translation, regarding this verse?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Greek Texts
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

John 1:1 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν λόγος, καὶ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν λόγος.
KJV with Strong's
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God
John 1:1 Hebrew Bible
בראשית היה הדבר והדבר היה את האלהים ואלהים היה הדבר׃

John 1:1 Aramaic NT: Peshitta
ܒܪܫܝܬ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܡܠܬܐ ܘܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܠܗܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ ܀

Additional Parallel Greek
Parallel Verses
New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 
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HARK!

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Greek Texts
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

I see a match to the manuscript that was used by the CLV. The CLV is pretty good about conforming to the Critical Text.


New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So where is the problem? Is it that the CLV conforms more closely to the rendering of the word order in the original manuscript? Do you have a problem with word for word translations?
 
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"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"?

Carl, it appears that you really don't know any Greek? The reading of the CLV, "toward", is what the Greek preposition, "πρός", actually means! It can also mean "with, at the side of, in the presence of, before", etc. The idea is that of "distinction", so God and The Word here in verse 1, are "distinct Persons". The literal English translation of the Greek is, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was beside God, and God was the Word".
 
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Carl Emerson

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Carl, it appears that you really don't know any Greek? The reading of the CLV, "toward", is what the Greek preposition, "πρός", actually means! It can also mean "with, at the side of, in the presence of, before", etc. The idea is that of "distinction", so God and The Word here in verse 1, are "distinct Persons". The literal English translation of the Greek is, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was beside God, and God was the Word".

Correct - I now enough Greek to be dangerous !!

I studied under Professor Blaiklock 35 years ago and I have forgotten the lot.

The issue I have is that using the CLV makes the Word subordinate to God.

That is what Hark stated.

That is why I prefer the common translation that the Word is God.

Might sound picky but it is very important.
 
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HARK!

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HARK!

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The issue I have is that using the CLV makes the Word subordinate to God.

The CLV makes a literal translation, nothing more.

Let's use your preferred translation to support this truth.

Luke 22:42 KJV

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

This is just one of numerous examples, in scripture, of Yahshua's subjection to the Father to the end.
 
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My preferred translation is the NASB.

Jesus is God period.

You need to review your understanding of the Trinity.

Presenting strawman arguments and red herrings doesn't negate the fact that the Son is not the Father.

Hopefully we can get back on topic now.

The focus of this thread is described in the title.
 
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Bond-servant of Christ

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How so?

Yahshua is the word.

Yahshua was there in the beginning.

Yahshua submits to YHWH.

That about covers it.

What part is un-Biblical?

You are saying that Jesus Christ is "subordinate" to God the Father, which is IMPOSSIBLE!
 
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Jesus taught that he is subordinate to the Father.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

And so did the Apostle Paul

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15:26-28
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

For he hath put all things under his feet.

But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 
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Continued from: Paul Teaches from the TaNaK: Romans 2

Romans 3
CLV(i) 1 What, then, is the prerogative of the Jew, or what the benefit of circumcision? 2 Much in every manner. For first, indeed, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God." 3 For what if some disbelieve? Will not their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 May it not be coming to that! Now let God be true, yet every man a liar, even as it is written: "That so Thou shouldst be justified in Thy sayings, And shalt be conquering when Thou art being judged."

(CLV) Ps 51:4
Against You, against You alone have I sinned And done what is evil in Your eyes, So that You may be found righteous when You speak, And be cleared when You judge.


5 Now if our injustice is commending God's righteousness, what shall we declare? Not that God Who is bringing on indignation is unjust! (As a man am I saying it.)" 6 May it not be coming to that! Else how shall God be judging the world? 7 Yet if the truth of God superabounds in my lie, for His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner, 8 and why not say, according as we are calumniated and according as some are averring that we are saying, that "We should be doing evil that good may be coming"? - whose judgment is fair." 9 What, then? Are we privileged? Undoubtedly not, for we previously charge both Jews and Greeks to be all under sin, 10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just- not even one." 11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God. 12 All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!"

(CLV) Ps 14:1
The decadent one says in his heart, There is no Elohim. They have become corrupt and abhorrent in activity; There is no one doing good.
(CLV) Ps 14:2
Yahweh, He gazes down from the heavens on the sons of humanity, To see whether there is anyone acting intelligently, Anyone seeking after Elohim.
(CLV) Ps 14:3
All withdraw aside; Together they are spoiled. There is no one doing good; There is not even one.

(CLV) Ps 53:1
The decadent one says in his heart, There is no Elohim. They have become corrupt and abhorrent with iniquity; There is no one doing good.
(CLV) Ps 53:2
Elohim, He gazes down from the heavens on the sons of humanity, To see whether there is anyone acting intelligently, Anyone seeking after Elohim.
(CLV) Ps 53:3
Everyone has turned away; Together they are spoiled. There is no one doing good; There is not even one.

(CLV) Ec 7:20
For there is no righteous man in the earth Who does good and never |sins.

13 A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud."The venom of asps is under their lips."

(CLV) Ps 5:9
For there is nothing established in their mouth; Within them are woes; A sepulcher opened is their throat; With their tongue they deal slickly.

(CLV) Ps 140:3
They whet their tongue like a serpent; The venom of an asp is under their lips.


14 Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed.

(CLV) Ps 10:7
His mouth is full of imprecation, with deceit and fraud; Under his tongue are misery and lawlessness.


15 Sharp are their feet to shed blood.

(CLV) Pr 1:16
For their feet run to evil, And they hasten to shed blood.


16 Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways, 17 And the way of peace they do not know."

(CLV) Isa 59:8
The way of peace they do not know, And there is no right judgment in their rounds; They have made their tracks perverted for themselves; Anyone treading in them knows not peace.


18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

(CLV) Ps 36:1
The wicked one ›has a watchword of transgression within his heart; There is no awe of Elohim in front of his eyes;


19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law (TORAH), that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God, 20 because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin." 21 Yet now, apart from law (TORAH), a righteousness of God

(CLV) Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.

So from the beginning we have the word of YHWH who was subordinate to YHWH.


is manifest (being attested by the law (TORAH) and the prophets),

YHWH attests to his own word in the TaNaK through Moses and the Prophets. Yahshua is the word. Yahshua walked the Earth as YHWH's Torah in the flesh.

(CLV) Jn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.


22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,

The written Torah testifies of Yahshua. Yahshua testifies of the written Torah.

23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. 24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" 25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, (tabernacle) through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God), 26 toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus." 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? 28 Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is He the god of the Jews only? Is He not of the nations also? 30 Yes, of the nations also, if so be that God is One, Who will be justifying the Circumcision out of faith and the Uncircumcision through faith." 31 Are we, then, nullifying law (Torah) through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law (Torah)."

Paul Teaches from the TaNaK: Romans 4

Also from Romans 1.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Hab. 4:4 of the Law and Prophets where Paul says the Gospel of Christ is found.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

God hath showed them the Gospel of Christ, but they didn't "believe/ have Faith".

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Great post Hark :)
 
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You are saying that Jesus Christ is "subordinate" to God the Father, which is IMPOSSIBLE!

I think Hark is trusting the Word's of the Holy Scriptures which are said to be inspired by the God of the Bible.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

This wouldn't be "Hark" saying anything of his own,rather simply furthering what the Lord's Christ said Himself.
 
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