Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 14

[HARK!]

Continued from: Romans Chapter 13

Romans 14 (CLV)
1 Now the infirm in the faith be taking to yourselves, but not for discrimination of reasonings."

YHWH's Law is relatively well defined; and it doesn't leave much room for biased reasonings.

(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.


(CLV) Ro 7:7
What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."

2 One, indeed, is believing to eat all things, yet the infirm one is eating greens." 3 Let not him who is eating be scorning him who is not eating. Yet let not him who is not eating be judging him who is eating, for God took him to Himself."

Not eating: This is called fasting. There are no laws in the Torah that command a fast. Fast days are man made traditions. Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over Torah. Paul is saying don't bicker with the newbies over conflicts in tradition.

4 Who are you who are judging Another's domestic? To his own Master he is standing or falling. Now he will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." 5 One indeed, is deciding for one day rather than another day, yet one is deciding for every day. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind."

Some try to twist this passage to say that we are not required to honor Sabbath or YHWH's Moedim (Feast Days) Paul is not giving permission to transgress the law.

Romans 2:12
12 for whoever sinned without the law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged."

The Sabbath is forever.

(CLV) Ex 31:16
Hence the sons of Israel will keep the sabbath so as to make the sabbath an eonian covenant throughout their generations.

(CLV) Ex 31:17
Between Me and the sons of Israel it shall be a sign for the eon, for in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He ceased and was refreshed.

All of the Moedim (Feasts) are forever.
See Leviticus 23.

All of these days are specifically detailed in the Torah. You can't keep them "every day."

6 He who is disposed to the day, is disposed to it to the Lord; and he who is eating, is eating to the Lord, for he is thanking God. And he who is not eating, to the Lord is not eating, and is thanking God." 7 For not one of us is living to himself, and not one is dying to himself." 8 For both, if we should be living, to the Lord are we living, and if we should be dying, to the Lord are we dying. Then, both if we should be living and if we should be dying, we are the Lord's." 9 For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living." 10 Now why are you judging your brother? Or why are you also scorning your brother? For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God, 11 for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!" 12 Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God." 13 By no means, then, should we still be judging one another, but rather decide this, not to place a stumbling block for a brother, or a snare." 14 I have perceived and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is contaminating of itself, except that the one reckoning anything to be contaminating, to that one it is contaminating." 15 For if, because of food, your brother is sorrowing, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not, by your food, destroy that one for whose sake Christ died."

Food is also defined in the Torah. Pork is not food by YHWH's definition.

16 Let not, then, your good be calumniated, 17 for the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in holy spirit." 18 For he who in this is slaving for Christ, is well pleasing to God and attested by men." 19 Consequently, then, we are pursuing that which makes for peace and that which is for edification of one another." 20 Not on account of food demolish the work of God. All, indeed, is clean, but it is evil to the man who with stumbling is eating."

All food is clean; Again YHWH did not define pork as food.

21 It is ideal not to be eating meat, nor yet to be drinking wine, nor yet to do aught by which your brother is stumbling, or is being snared or weakened." 22 The faith which you have, have for yourself in God's sight. Happy is he who is not judging himself in that which he is attesting." 23 Now he who is doubting if he should be eating is condemned, seeing that it is not out of faith. Now everything which is not out of faith is sin."

What is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 2:31'
31 Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law."




Legal Terms:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)


Romans Chapter 15

 

[SwordmanJr]

There are those who teach that we must pursue the living of the Law. They seem to gravitate toward the layman's inability to understand the Law without it being properly interpreted and disseminated to you by them or some other teacher of the Law with whom they have become enamored?

What does the word of God have to say on the topic that goes mostly ignored by legalists?

We are to obey the Law that has been written upon our hearts by the very Lord who indwells ALL His people.

[Isa 51:6-7 KJV] 6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. 7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

When men revile you for not pursuing the living of the Law that they have tasked upon themselves, allegedly as some sort of measure of their love for God, and/or of solidifying their place in eternity, remember the words inspired by the Lord through such prophets as Isaiah, quoted above. Do the Law that He has placed within and upon your heart. WHO is in your heart? For those who truly follow Christ Jesus, He is the Spirit of the Most High, and who will guide you in every way.

[1Jo 2:27 KJV] 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

When you are in Christ Jesus, He is within you, and will teach you all things, as is emphatically stated above. The legalists will harangue , clamor and clink their chains of enslavement, beckoning you to become enslaved right along with them. The choice is yours. Hear and obey the Lord, or hear and obey them.

Jr

 

[BobRyan]

There are those who teach that we must pursue the living of the Law. They seem to gravitate toward the layman's inability to understand the Law without it being properly interpreted and disseminated to you by them or some other teacher of the Law with whom they have become enamored?

Do you consider yourself to be such a teacher?

When you are in Christ Jesus, He is within you, and will teach you all things,

Does he speak against scripture in your POV?

 

[HARK!]

[Isa 51:6-7 KJV] 6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. 7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

[1Jo 2:27 KJV] 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

(CLV) Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.

(CLV) Jn 14:24
He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

 

[SwordmanJr]

Do you consider yourself to be such a teacher?

Of the Law? No. I point only to what is written. I do not place myself on a level where I point people back to the letter that kills, but rather to what Jesus HImself pointed at when confronted by Satan. Jesus never tried to argue with Satan. He stated emphatically, time and time again, "It is written..."

Does he speak against scripture in your POV?

There is no right answer to the wrong question. This trap you're trying to set is a wasted effort. What's at issue here is the totality of what scripture says about the Law, what it is, where it resides, and WHO is the teacher.

Now, maybe you are one of those who attend churchianity under the expectation that you must remain always and for life a bleeting sheeple member. That's fine with me. You stay right where you are and let the Law be driven through your heart like a stake through the heart. Go for it.

John, on the other hand, stated otherwise, as did Paul and Peter. You and all others who may be enslaved in the chains of the letter. It is written that the Law is written upon our hearts, and with it in it's proper place, upon a heart of flesh, it remains, is abiding, and living. Many choose to soar with the wings of spiritual maturity. If that guy above you, standing behind that pulpit, pointing down at you in the place where you are expected to remain as an audience member, he will continue to feed you the letter. Many others of us, however, have aspired to taking responsibility for what we believe by seeking out the Lord who teaches us ALL things. Whether you believe that or not is no skin off my back. You will do what you want, believe what you want. Go for it. I'm not here to move you away from what you are comfortable with.

You see, I'm not better than you or anyone else here. I need the Spirit of the Lord within me, with the leading of the Spirit I will live by His Law without pretending like I'm better than all others who don't believe as I do. So, you continue pointing at the letters of the ten commandments, pretending that by allegedly obeying and living the sabbath, you are in good with God. Again, go for it. I am content with what is written. Nobody is suggesting living by whatever we want, even to the point of free sin. That's a straw man, and nothing more.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Your words are so empty, because they possess only the power of the letters. You two seem to love playing the straw man game, because nobody has said anything about the Law passing away nor being diminished. The Spirit, Yeshua, who wrote the Law, He is within us. He is our guide. He is the Law Giver. It is His finger that writes it all upon our Heart. It is He who instructs and teaches us. Your fixation upon the external letters and words is your problem. Trying to foist that same, dead belief upon others like myself is a wasted effort. I can see where you're coming from, and Yeshua has already spoken about that position for what it is.

So, you can save your typing time trying to twist my words into things I never said. It is my hope that you find yourself sinking deeper and deeper into a spiritual relationship with the Lord that He may lead you deeper into what it means for the Law to be written upon your heart, and then LIVING by that which is written within you.

Jr

 

[BobRyan]

When you are in Christ Jesus, He is within you, and will teach you all things,

Does he speak against scripture in your POV?

There is no right answer to the wrong question.

Its a revealing question about your doctrine - to see if it is supported or refuted by scripture.
"The test" of scripture.

Its a blessed highlight for truth - and yet a trap for error if it exists there.

This trap you're trying to set is a wasted effort. What's at issue here is the totality of what scripture says about the Law, what it is, where it resides, and WHO is the teacher.

The question remains - does your doctrine claim that Christ was against scripture?

Now, maybe you are one of those who attend churchianity

The question remains - does your doctrine claim that Christ was against scripture?

John, on the other hand, stated otherwise, as did Paul and Peter.

Does your doctrine claim that Peter or Paul or John were against scripture or that they claimed Christ was against scripture???

You will do what you want, believe what you want. Go for it. I'm not here to move you away from what you are comfortable with.

You see, I'm not better than you or anyone else here. I need the Spirit of the Lord within me,
Jr

houston we have a problem

 

[HARK!]

Of the Law? No. I point only to what is written. I do not place myself on a level where I point people back to the letter that kills, but rather to what Jesus HImself pointed at when confronted by Satan. Jesus never tried to argue with Satan. He stated emphatically, time and time again, "It is written..."

Good stuff!

(CLV) Mt 4:4
Yet He, answering, said, "It is written, `Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration going out through the mouth of God.'"

 

[HARK!]

Your words are so empty,

Those aren't my words. Those were Yahshua's words. He was speaking for YHWH.

 

[HARK!]

It is written that the Law is written upon our hearts, and with it in it's proper place, upon a heart of flesh, it remains, is abiding, and living.

Are you then living in the Torah, as Yahshua and his disciples?

Since you have his law written on your heart; would you do me a huge favor?

Would you start in Genesis 1:1 and write down every law that was given to us, in the order that they appear in the Bible?

Judaism says that there are 613; but I know better. I know that there are more.

For someone who has all of this written in his heart; this should be a rather simple task. taking maybe an hour or so; but it would mean so much to me. It would take me years of hard study to accomplish this; and even then, I might miss something.

Thank you so much, in advance!

I'd like to memorize his law by heart.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Does he speak against scripture in your POV?

This question makes no sense because I never even hinted at the idea that he ever spoke against scripture.

Its a revealing question about your doctrine - to see if it is supported or refuted by scripture.
"The test" of scripture.

My doctrine? Please don't insult others by trying to turn the tables around to where it's a question of the individual's belief. Scriptures say what they say, and legalists claiming they are taking ALL of scripture into consideration when in fact they are leaving out and/or ignoring those scriptures that speak of a deeper, more profound level of living in obedience unto Christ, what's left but to, as I said, turn the tables and make it about the individuals who disagree with your presentation.

The question remains - does your doctrine claim that Christ was against scripture?

No. Christ was/is against your interpretation of scripture and your selective application of scripture.

Does your doctrine claim that Peter or Paul or John were against scripture or that they claimed Christ was against scripture???

No. The problem is your selective, choice morsals, bit's and pieces of scripture used to paste together that tattered tapestry you put together to try and enslave others in the chains of your bondages. Calling on Houston and any other brevity will not hide your gross misapplications and out of context harangues about the letter of the Law.

[Heb 7:11-13 KJV] 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

I'm sure you have some slick sounding negation to this, or even a complete change of course away from what the above is actually saying, just as you did with Acts 15 when trying to say that was only addressing man-made laws rather than acknowledge that the CONTEXT clearly was addressing the LAW OF MOSES. I've seen these slight of hand tricks too many times to not be familiar with their intent and the mindset behind them, so you may as well save yourself the trouble.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Are you then living in the Torah, as Yahshua and his disciples?

Since you have his law written on your heart; would you do me a huge favor?

Would you start in Genesis 1:1 and write down every law that was given to us, in the order that they appear in the Bible?

Do you not aspire to the writing of the Law upon your heart? Do you have a problem with that? If so, why? What alternative do you suggest?

Judaism says that there are 613; but I know better. I know that there are more.

For someone who has all of this written in his heart; this should be a rather simple task. taking maybe an hour or so; but it would mean so much to me. It would take me years of hard study to accomplish this; and even then, I might miss something.

What part of 1 John 2:27 do you not comprehend? What level of faith do you suppose you must possess for what John said to become real to you? Why suggest years of study (which is good) when, if one has that Anointing dwelling within His heart, all that study is secondary to the instruction of the Most High directly within one's own heart? Are you not willing to give yourself over to the One who inspired those words? Do you think that by your human efforts of study that you can then arrive at that highest peak of obedience, attaining unto the FULLNESS of the stature of Christ Jesus (Yeshua)?

I'd like to memorize his law by heart.

That's great. Go for it. I have no problem with memorizing that and so much more. But you'll have to ask yourself.....what good will I be doing for others when I know that the Law forbids us from wearing garments woven with more than one type of fiber (cotton and wool, or polyester mix, etc.)? How much of your wardrobe is a violation of that? Is that truly a moral violation in Christ. See below:

[Heb 7:11-13 KJV] 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

Please remember.....it is written..... This is not about my doctrine, for what I think is of no consequence. What matters is what is written. THAT is the beginning of moving toward the One of whom it all speaks in order to enter into that deepest of relationships. It is in relationship and His indwelling us, that He is able to perfect us unto obedience as a sweet savor unto His Throne.

Jr

 

[BobRyan]

Do you not aspire to the writing of the Law upon your heart? Do you have a problem with that?

Why should we oppose it?? -- Jeremiah was not opposed to it - he is the one that penned that New Covenant statement in Jer 31:31-34 knowing full well that the LAW of God written on the heart included the TEN - where as Paul said "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment. Eph 6:1-2

 

[BobRyan]

I never even hinted at the idea that he ever spoke against scripture.

I take that as a positive... thanks for finally posting it in answer to that repeated question.

 

[SwordmanJr]

Why should we oppose it?? -- Jeremiah was not opposed to it - he is the one that penned that New Covenant statement in Jer 31:31-34 knowing full well that the LAW of God written on the heart included the TEN - where as Paul said "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment. Eph 6:1-2

Why do you suppose only nine of the ten are repeated in the NT? Are you saying that we are also required to be pharasaical about the Sabbath, looking down upon those who don't keep it as those who believe in its keeping as they keep it?

What exactly are you saying?

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

I take that as a positive... thanks for finally posting it in answer to that repeated question.

I also asked why you would even ask such a question, the answer to which never came so that I could understand the framework of your question.

Jr

 

[BobRyan]

Why do you suppose only nine of the ten are repeated in the NT?

Because I did a search on the phrase "Do not take God's name in vain".

What exactly are you saying?

I am saying that the fact that "Do not take God's name in vain" is never repeated in the NT - is not some odd kind of "Bible proof" that we should ignore that commandment.

There is no command in scripture of the form "Whatever is not constantly repeated in the Word of God - should be deleted".

An you should read my post, and be honest by admitting that I never said anything about ignoring nor doing away with anything.

whoah!! That is nice to hear at this point.

 

[BobRyan]

When you are in Christ Jesus, He is within you, and will teach you all things,

Does he speak against scripture in your POV?

There is no right answer to the wrong question.

Its a revealing question about your doctrine - to see if it is supported or refuted by scripture.
"The test" of scripture.

Its a blessed highlight for truth - and yet a trap for error if it exists there.

This trap you're trying to set is a wasted effort. What's at issue here is the totality of what scripture says about the Law, what it is, where it resides, and WHO is the teacher.

The question remains - does your doctrine claim that Christ was against scripture?

Now, maybe you are one of those who attend churchianity

The question remains - does your doctrine claim that Christ was against scripture?

John, on the other hand, stated otherwise, as did Paul and Peter.

Does your doctrine claim that Peter or Paul or John were against scripture or that they claimed Christ was against scripture???

I also asked why you would even ask such a question, the answer to which never came so that I could understand the framework of your question.
Jr

If you would kindly admit that Christ was not opposing the Word of God, not opposing scripture - then to refer to scripture is not "anti" Christ it is in favor of Christ who did Himself often quote it and use it as proof = for example in Luke 24 and in Mark 7:6-13

 

[SwordmanJr]

Because I did a search on the phrase "Do not take God's name in vain".



I am saying that the fact that "Do not take God's name in vain" is never repeated in the NT - is not some odd kind of "Bible proof" that we should ignore that commandment.

There is no command in scripture of the form "Whatever is not constantly repeated in the Word of God - should be deleted".

And yet, in all that, you continue to miss the fact that the LIFE of the Law written upon our Hearts by the Law Giver is so powerful that the letter under which you have placed yourself, it is no longer of any greater power than the Power who indwells us. The power of the Law written on our hearts is His Power, by which we live and breath. You argue symantics of the letter, I argue with finger pointing only to the indwelling Lord. That distinction alone drives home the inferior nature of your petty arguments in favor of the letter being the guide of our lives as opposed to the Spirit, the Law Giver, being the Guide of our lives.

Go for it, dude. Go for it with gusto. Live the letter as best you can, and let the Lord reward that as He will.

Rom 3:19 KJV - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 KJV - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 KJV - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested (not doing away with, but WITHOUT), being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [emphasis mine]
Rom 3:22 KJV - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 KJV - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 KJV - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:27 KJV - Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 KJV - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:31 KJV - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

So, we who have the Law Giver within us, with His Law written upon our hearts, we ESTABLISH the Law. Therefore, the absolutely absurd and dishonest accusation that we subscribe to the "doing away with the Law," is utter and complete nonsense.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Does he speak against scripture in your POV?

Rom 3:19 KJV - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 KJV - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 KJV - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested (not doing away with, but WITHOUT), being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [emphasis mine]
Rom 3:22 KJV - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 KJV - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 KJV - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:27 KJV - Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 KJV - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:31 KJV - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

So, we who have the Law Giver within us, with His Law written upon our hearts, we ESTABLISH the Law. Therefore, generally speaking, the absolutely absurd and dishonest accusation by some that we subscribe to the "doing away with the Law," is utter and complete nonsense. The letter of the Law stands as the letter that accuses those who reject Christ Jesus in this life.

Jr