Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 1

[Cribstyl]

Oh my...

Here is the verse I'm referring to:

5 Jesus Christ, our Lord, through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,


If you will notice faith qualifies the obedience, not the other way around. The key word is obedience.

Obedience how?

Obedience through faith.

Obedience to what?

YHWH's law.

We obtain grace for obedience through faith.
We don't obtain grace for saying, "yeah, I believe every word you say Father;" then ignoring everything he said, living like Satan.

Here is the final word on this chapter:

32 those who, recognizing the just statute of God, that those committing such things are deserving of death, not only are doing them, but are endorsing, also, those who are committing them."

I disagree. Here's what Paul is teaching.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Grace is a gift from God through Jesus Christ who died for sin.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Hinting and stringing questions and commentary to various scriptures and saying that we obtain grace for obedience (to the law) contradicts Paul's teaching.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I disagree. Here's what Paul is teaching.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Grace is a gift from God through Jesus Christ who died for sin.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Hinting and stringing questions and commentary to various scriptures and saying that we obtain grace for obedience (to the law) contradicts Paul's teaching.

Paul at the beginning and end of Romans speaks of 'the obedience of faith'; 'obedience to the faith'; this is consistent with justification by faith, a central message of Romans.

 

[HARK!]

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Grace is a gift from God through Jesus Christ who died for sin.

We've been over this before. I made my case in the OP. Why haven't you addressed the OP?


5 Jesus Christ, our Lord, through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,

Let's break this down; and look at it carefully. We obtain grace through Yahshua. Grace for what? Breaking YHWH's law?

No.

For obedience.

Obedience of what? YHWH's law.

Yes, not that it is within the ability of our flesh to keep it; but through faith that YHWH (Yah) will save (shua) his people through Yahshua.

Obedience through faith.

When we come into faith, we are granted grace; thereby obedience becomes the fruit of that faith, for his name's sake.

Do you suppose that we receive grace from our past transgressions to continue in those transgressions: or not?

It seem to me that you are promoting lawlessness. If I'm mistaken about that, please clarify that for me.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Dead to sins? What does that mean to you; that you shouldn't be living in sin?

I covered this chapter in depth here: Paul on the Law: Ephesians 2

5 (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!)" 6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus, 7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." 8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, 9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." 10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."

So we were created for good works and should be walking in them? Good to know. I suppose I should try to remember that.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Again:

5 (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!)" 6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus, 7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." 8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, 9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." 10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."

So we were created for good works and should be walking in them? Good to know. I suppose I should try to remember that.

Hinting and stringing questions and commentary to various scriptures and saying that we obtain grace for obedience (to the law) contradicts Paul's teaching.

By cherry picking and taking Paul's letters out of context; you contradict Paul's teachings.

 

[Cribstyl]

I cant go further than holding you accountable to your opening comments

We've been over this before. I made my case in the OP. Why haven't you addressed the OP?


5 Jesus Christ, our Lord, through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,

Let's break this down; and look at it carefully. We obtain grace through Yahshua. Grace for what? Breaking YHWH's law?

No.

For obedience.

Obedience of what? YHWH's law.

Yes, not that it is within the ability of our flesh to keep it; but through faith that YHWH (Yah) will save (shua) his people through Yahshua.

Obedience through faith.

When we come into faith, we are granted grace; thereby obedience becomes the fruit of that faith, for his name's sake.

Do you suppose that we receive grace from our past transgressions to continue in those transgressions: or not?

It seem to me that you are promoting lawlessness. If I'm mistaken about that, please clarify that for me.




Dead to sins? What does that mean to you; that you shouldn't be living in sin?

I covered this chapter in depth here: Paul on the Law: Ephesians 2

5 (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!)" 6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus, 7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." 8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, 9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." 10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."

So we were created for good works and should be walking in them? Good to know. I suppose I should try to remember that.



Again:

5 (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!)" 6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus, 7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." 8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, 9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." 10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."

So we were created for good works and should be walking in them? Good to know. I suppose I should try to remember that.



By cherry picking and taking Paul's letters out of context; you contradict Paul's teachings.

This is how I approach all OP's. I read it then ask questions on issues to get clarification.
When you're asked questions, you don't directly respond. So, here we are trying to
figure out what you're talking about.

In post #2 Farouk presented a text that said by grace, through faith not of works. The summary of your commentary is We obtain grace for obedience to the law

faroukfarouk said: ↑
Paul also says it is by grace, through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9).

Your response to him was a dodge of the scripture he posted. You said:

I haven't finished with Romans yet. I will get to Ephesians in a future series; but certainly you aren't saying that Paul is contradicting himself. No?

AussiePete came hard with scriptures that contradict your comments.
I came at you about Paul saying I am not ashamed of the gospel, it is the power of god unto salvation. You then claimed that the law is the gospel.
I presented scriptures but you say I'm contradicting Paul. I can't go past Rom 1:1-5

 

[visionary]

I disagree. Here's what Paul is teaching.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Grace is a gift from God through Jesus Christ who died for sin.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Hinting and stringing questions and commentary to various scriptures and saying that we obtain grace for obedience (to the law) contradicts Paul's teaching.

For obedience.....WHAT IS ALL THIS GRACE FOR??

 

[visionary]

Are you listening to yourself? This thread is suppose to be a study of Romans 1, and in this instance it should be about Paul's words in Rom 1:5. All the other noise is not well received.

I must have hit a home run for you to do this dodge.

 

[Cribstyl]

For obedience.....WHAT IS ALL THIS GRACE FOR??

You're not responding to my responses to your posts, you're just repeating the same claims.
Grace is "For obedience to the faith" not obedience to the law. (that you seem to be implying.)
"The faith" is also know as The Gospel.
Faith and law are separate covenants. (you should know that)
Gal 3 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Posting Rom 3:31 does not negate Rom 3:21,28, If isolated out of context, it appear to say opposite.

Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Let see what you say to this response

 

[Cribstyl]

Double bubble

 

[Cribstyl]

I must have hit a home run for you to do this dodge.

Home run? Dodge? This response a foul ball. All I can do is ignore.
What does Paul's obedience have to do with Rom 1:5?
Here's your post below

If you are "Catholic/ Lutheran/ Methodist" {I don't care what name you give the flavor} there is behaviors that indicate that you are obedient to the faith. In Paul's case, his obedience to the faith is Jewish.

 

[HARK!]

Your response to him was a dodge of the scripture he posted. You said:

I've made great strides with Ephesians now. You can start here: Paul on the Law: Ephesians 1

The juicy bits are here: Paul on the Law: Ephesians 2

 

[HARK!]

The summary of your commentary is We obtain grace for obedience to the law

\

I would prefer that you quote me directly. It has become apparent that you misinterpret what I say; just as readily as you misinterpret scripture.

 

[HARK!]

Faith and law are separate covenants. (you should know that)

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:17
Thus, also, is faith, if it should not have works: it is dead by itself.

(CLV) Ja 2:18
But someone will be declaring, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from the works and I shall be showing you my faith by my works.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him iofor righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

(CLV) Ja 2:26
For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead.

 

[Cribstyl]

Cribstyl said: ↑
The summary of your commentary is We obtain grace for obedience to the law

I would prefer that you quote me directly. It has become apparent that you misinterpret what I say; just as readily as you misinterpret scripture.

Let's break this down; and look at it carefully. We obtain grace through Yahshua. Grace for what? Breaking YHWH's law?
No.
For obedience.
Obedience of what? YHWH's law.
Yes, not that it is within the ability of our flesh to keep it; but through faith that YHWH (Yah) will save (shua) his people through Yahshua.

Grace for obedience, obedience to YHWH'S law.

That's why I asked you to explain Rom 1:5. You did do the (CLV) obedience-faith jig as if Paul was talking about obedience to the law.
You ignore me posting that the law is not of faith. We cant have a conversation because your motives are clear. you have a bible to write........that's why you're being exposed by the scriptures you contradict.

 

[HARK!]

Cribstyl said: ↑
The summary of your commentary is We obtain grace for obedience to the law



Grace for obedience, obedience to YHWH'S law

OK, I see your misunderstanding now. I'll have to edit that portion for clarity. Thanks for pointing that out. Maybe I started speaking like Paul after reading so much of his writings for so long. lol!

If a wild biker gang member comes to faith, YHWH affords him grace for his past deeds.

Now, what is the purpose of that grace?

Is it for him to continue in his wild lifestyle; so that he can have biker parties before YHWH's throne; or is it for salvation in his walk in obedience to YHWH's law in Messiah?

 

[Cribstyl]

OK, I see your misunderstanding now. I'll have to edit that portion for clarity. Thanks for pointing that out. Maybe I started speaking like Paul after reading so much of his writings for so long. lol!

If a wild biker gang member comes to faith, YHWH affords him grace for his past deeds.

Now; what is the purpose of that grace?

Is it for him to continue in his wild lifestyle; so that he can have biker parties before YHWH's throne; or is it for salvation in his walk in obedience to YHWH's law in Messiah?

My misunderstanding? Thanks for pointing out my misunderstanding?
Ok Paul.

 

[visionary]

You're not responding to my responses to your posts, you're just repeating the same claims.
Grace is "For obedience to the faith" not obedience to the law. (that you seem to be implying.)
"The faith" is also know as The Gospel.
Faith and law are separate covenants. (you should know that)
Gal 3 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Posting Rom 3:31 does not negate Rom 3:21,28, If isolated out of context, it appear to say opposite.

Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Let see what you say to this response

You are talking Greek in a Hebrew mindset. You don't make sense. Hebrews always know faith is not a declaration as much as it is action that prove it. Using the law as your guide line you can see the believers of the faith.

 

[visionary]

Home run? Dodge? This response a foul ball. All I can do is ignore.
What does Paul's obedience have to do with Rom 1:5?
Here's your post below

And you miss the point. … This faith is Jewish. Hence it is about obedience.

 

[HARK!]

You are talking Greek in a Hebrew mindset. You don't make sense. Hebrews always know faith is not a declaration as much as it is action that prove it. Using the law as your guide line you can see the believers of the faith.

The Hebrew mindset is concrete. The Greek mindset is abstract. Western culture has difficulty understanding the Hebrew mindset; because Western culture is built on Greek Philosophy.

 

[SkyWriting]

Paul also says it is by grace, through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9).

There were 40 authors and 4000 years of writings inspired by God in the Bible.
If Paul says anything that Bereans would set aside, then we should as well.

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

 

[faithisthekey1]

It is the chicken before the egg argument. Does grace bring you to obedience? or does obedience bring you grace?

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Romans6:14