Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 1

[Bob S]

Grace is the result of love. God's love for mankind. Obedience is that result of our love to God and to our fellow man.

"Marvelous grace of our loving Lord,
Grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt!
Yonder on Calvary’s mount outpoured,
There where the blood of the Lamb was spilled.

• Refrain:
  Grace, grace, God’s grace,
  Grace that will pardon and cleanse within;
  Grace, grace, God’s grace,
  Grace that is greater than all our sin!"
  Julia H. Johnston, 1910
  

 

[visionary]

Obedience to come to His calling is a result of His love towards us. Grace is the gift, but we have to accept it, receive it, and acknowledge it. In return we have to show our appreciation for it. It may be freely given but it comes with expectations.

 

[Bob S]

A gift is not a gift if it comes with expectations.

 

[visionary]

A gift is not a gift if it comes with expectations.

The idea that a gift is freely given without expectations is grand. But the purpose of the gift is to start a relationship. This relationship entails the policy and procedures of that relationship. Both parties are involved in that process in order to have a harmonious relationship.

 

[Bob S]

The BIG "BUT" That means forget about what I just wrote this is what I really mean.

What it really means is no strings attached, a real gift. Our part is only to believe. Jn5:24 24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[HARK!]

The BIG "BUT" That means forget about what I just wrote this is what I really mean.

What it really means is no strings attached, a real gift. Our part is only to believe. Jn5:24 24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed ion Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness
(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws
(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?
(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.
(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.
(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,
(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

 

[HARK!]

A gift is not a gift if it comes with expectations.

From the very next chapter: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 2


13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified."

What's this? Just hearing the law doesn't justify me? YHWH is actually asking that I respond to his commands?

So even though we are saved by grace; it's the doers of the law that will be righteous, and justified before YHWH?
Not because works will save them; nor even because they have kept the law perfectly; but because they believe that YHWH's word is truth; thus they obey his law out of love for him and his truth?

14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands,

The law demands? Even after Yahshua has ascended? Interesting!


these, having no law, are a law to themselves, 15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts,

There are actions involved with the law?

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them, 16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ."

 

[visionary]

The BIG "BUT" That means forget about what I just wrote this is what I really mean.

What it really means is no strings attached, a real gift. Our part is only to believe. Jn5:24 24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Believe in the Hebrew language involves action not just a greek theology

 

[Dkh587]

The BIG "BUT" That means forget about what I just wrote this is what I really mean.

What it really means is no strings attached, a real gift. Our part is only to believe. Jn5:24 24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Belief without works is dead - works are evidence of belief. No works, no belief. It’s wonderfully simple.

James 2:14-17 ESV

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Can that faith save him?

If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[Jesse Johnson]

Hark
It's obvious that your commentary of Rom 1 is saying that grace is given to those who are obedient to the righteousness of the law.
That is not what Paul is teaching here or anywhere in the scriptures.
I posted Gal 3 to show you that Paul distinguishes the works of the law from the works of faith.
You posted James as saying that faith without works is dead.
It should be clear that James is not talking about works of the law, but rather the works of faith.
Your definition of righteousness is strictly in reference to the law.
Gal 3 explains Abraham's work was not about the law, that caused God to declare Him as righteous.
Your argument oppose the scripture explaining that the law came 430yrs after Abraham. Scriptures explains; if Abraham had the law then the promise would be void if it was conditioned on keeping the law. Not only do you reject the truth as it's written, you oppose and confuse it.
Rom 3:21-31 is about God's New covenant which is righteousness apart from the law. You intend to argue that verse 31 supports your argument.

Problem is, you leapfrog over Romans 2, where this little nugget resides:
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:13

 

[Cribstyl]

It is the chicken before the egg argument. Does grace bring you to obedience? or does obedience bring you grace?

Obedience to what?

 

[Cribstyl]

Belief without works is dead - works are evidence of belief. No works, no belief. It’s wonderfully simple.

James 2:14-17 ESV

When James said faith without works is dead. He continued to explain that faith has evidence (work)

According to James 2 the evidence (work) of Abraham's faith was to sacrifice Isaac. Jas 2:21
According to James 2 the evidence (work) of Abraham's faith to believe God resulted in him being declared righteous and a friend of God. Jas 2:23
According to James 2 the evidence (work) of Rahab's faith was to hide the spies

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James lesson seem clear that faith is "believing God" but works (evidence) must follow.
According to James 2 the devil's faith in what God's word says about him, causes him to tremble. (because where he will end up.)

What are the works of faith? Is the works of faith keeping the law?

Some people see 'works' as 'keeping the law' and they have a lot to say where scripture are silent about. They have no choice but to twist the scriptures.
Paul teaching spells out, that works of the law are not the works of faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Phl 3:9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
get back to me on this.

 

[HARK!]

Some people see works as keeping the law and they have a lot to say where scripture as silent. Paul teachings spell out that works of the law are not the works of faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

You should really start working from a literal translation.

(CLV) Ga 3:12
Now the law is not o of faith, but who does them "shall be living in them."

You can look at this verse in context in my study here: Paul on the Law: Galatians 3

 

[visionary]

Obedience to what?

The deal you made with God.... as He laid out.
Genesis 27:8
Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.

God goes on to explain
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Expecting commitment
Deuteronomy 13:4
Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

And your response should be like Peter's
Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

For salvation comes to those who walk this narrow path.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[Cribstyl]

The deal you made with God.... as He laid out.
Genesis 27:8
Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.

God goes on to explain
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Expecting commitment
Deuteronomy 13:4
Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

And your response should be like Peter's
Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

For salvation comes to those who walk this narrow path.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What are you talking about??
Go to Romans 1:1-5 in post #1 and see if Paul is talking about obedience to the faith or obedience to the law. In his commentary Hark defines "obedience" and grace from this text, as if Paul is talking about obedience to the law. So, my response is to show that Hark contradicts Paul in his opening study of Romans.
The text or verse says;
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Here is Hark's comments on Rom 1:5

Let's break this down; and look at it carefully. We obtain grace through Yahshua. Grace for what? Breaking YHWH's law?

No.

For obedience.

Obedience of what? YHWH's law.

Yes, not that it is within the ability of our flesh to keep it; but through faith that YHWH (Yah) will save (shua) his people through Yahshua.

Obedience through faith.

 

[Cribstyl]

It is the chicken before the egg argument. Does grace bring you to obedience? or does obedience bring you grace?

Viz, is that you? My longtime friend.

It does not seem as if you're following my dialog with Hark.

 

[HARK!]

hat are you talking about??
Go to Romans 1:1-5 in post #1 and see if Paul is talking about obedience to the faith or obedience to the law. In his commentary Hark defines "obedience" and grace from this text, as if Paul is talking about obedience to the law. So, my response is to show that Hark contradicts Paul in his opening study of Romans.
The text or verse says;
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Here is Hark's comments on Rom 1:5

Oh my...

Here is the verse I'm referring to:

5 Jesus Christ, our Lord, through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,


If you will notice faith qualifies the obedience, not the other way around. The key word is obedience.

Obedience how?

Obedience through faith.

Obedience to what?

YHWH's law.

We obtain grace for obedience through faith.
We don't obtain grace for saying, "yeah, I believe every word you say Father;" then ignoring everything he said, living like Satan.

Here is the final word on this chapter:

32 those who, recognizing the just statute of God, that those committing such things are deserving of death, not only are doing them, but are endorsing, also, those who are committing them."

 

[Cribstyl]

Obedience to come to His calling is a result of His love towards us. Grace is the gift, but we have to accept it, receive it, and acknowledge it. In return we have to show our appreciation for it. It may be freely given but it comes with expectations.

What expectations are you implying? Obedience to the law? Christian theology defines grace as 'unmerited favor'.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Don't contradict the fact that it's by the Grace of God that you are saved, and not from you keeping the law, because your salvation is a gift from God. If you're saved from your works, then you could say that you had something to do with your salvation.

 

[visionary]

What are you talking about??
Go to Romans 1:1-5 in post #1 and see if Paul is talking about obedience to the faith or obedience to the law. In his commentary Hark defines "obedience" and grace from this text, as if Paul is talking about obedience to the law. So, my response is to show that Hark contradicts Paul in his opening study of Romans.
The text or verse says;
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Here is Hark's comments on Rom 1:5

If you are "Catholic/ Lutheran/ Methodist" {I don't care what name you give the flavor} there is behaviors that indicate that you are obedient to the faith. In Paul's case, his obedience to the faith is Jewish.

 

[Cribstyl]

If you are "Catholic/ Lutheran/ Methodist" {I don't care what name you give the flavor} there is behaviors that indicate that you are obedient to the faith. In Paul's case, his obedience to the faith is Jewish.

Are you listening to yourself? This thread is suppose to be a study of Romans 1, and in this instance it should be about Paul's words in Rom 1:5. All the other noise is not well received.