Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

[Irminhart]

The church father's have clearly outlined in their works and ministry of what is needed for salvation. If it was by Sola's, they would have stated that in their writings and the Nicean Creed.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What justifies your belief? That is the question people need to ask themselves. Sorry, I'm not trying to go on an anti-protestant rant. But it pains me to see people how people don't understand the fallacy of the Sola's.

What 'justifies' one's belief? (I assume by "justifies", you mean "how does one logically account for the fact that one's belief is genuine", or something of the sort.) The Holy Spirit placed within the heart is what produces that faith. It is not based on anything we do.

 

[Ceallaigh]

We have to understand that the Pharisees created a system of religion (Contrary to Scripture) that was highly works based and had little to no grace or mercy. This is why Jesus referred to the tax collector calling out to God in seeking forgiveness over his sins. It was not that Jesus was promoting that we should just accept our sinfulness and we can do nothing about it. The tax collector was either coming to God for the first time, or he stumbled at a particular point in his life. For Jesus said to two people to “sin no more” in John 5:14, and John 8:11. I mean, why would Jesus be upset with the pharisees in calling them hypocrites if everyone is sinful and a hypocrite?

The way I see it, the point of Luke 18:9-14 is that the tax collector displayed humility, honesty and total reliance upon God. Whereas the Pharisee relied upon self righteousness. I don't see it as a matter of just accepting our sinfulness and we can do nothing about it. It's a matter of whether or not Jesus Christ alone is our only hope of salvation.

Again, you ripped the verse out of it's context and I shown how you did that. Again, but what really settles the matter is the words of Jesus. For Jesus said a good man brings forth that which is good out of the good treasure of his heart and an evil man brings forth that which is evil out of the bad treasure in his heart (See: Luke 6:45).

Again, I used Jeremiah 17:9 back at you because you used it when I said that God knows my heart. Tell me how Jeremiah 17:9 is in context with God knowing my heart.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Salvation can not be, and is not by faith alone. Forgive me for being too blunt, but this is the problem with Protestantism. There is no basis for their fundamental beliefs. It's strange how people quote verses and church father's, then try to interpret scripture outside of the church. Where do you think scripture came from? The Church! So many versus refute the notion of Sola-Scriptura & Sola-Fide. All my life Protestantism has felt so off to me. What justifies your belief? That is the question people need to ask themselves. Sorry, I'm not trying to go on an anti-protestant rant. But it pains me to see people how people don't understand the fallacy of the Sola's.

Are you coming at this from the Eastern Orthodox view or the Roman Catholic view?

 

[Irminhart]

Baptism, Chrismation, Confession, and Holy Communion are all NECESSARY along with faith and works. Clearly preached by Christ and his saint's. It's very simple. Your works justify your faith, as fell as your belief. All are important, none soley grant you salvation. The idea you can have faith in Christ, and live however you wish nor do any works (give alms, mysteries, sacraments, obey the commandments) etc. Is absolutely not a Christian stance and goes against the teachings of Christ, his apostles and the early church father's.

 

[Irminhart]

Are you coming at this from the Eastern Orthodox view or the Roman Catholic view?

Eastern Orthodox. I am not orthodox as of yet by the way. Though I have been studying Christian Theology for some time.

 

[Irminhart]

It doesn't matter what anyone's denomination is. What amazes me, is how it's a Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant. Read your Bible, read of the saint's and the early church father's and it will be made clear the Sola's are not Christian doctrines or beliefs held anytime prior to the reformation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The way I see it, the point of Luke 18:9-14 is that the tax collector displayed humility, honesty and total reliance upon God. Whereas the Pharisee relied upon self righteousness. I don't see it as a matter of just accepting our sinfulness and we can do nothing about it. It's a matter of whether or not Jesus Christ alone is our only hope of salvation.

I believe Jesus Christ alone is our only hope of salvation too but we define that differently (I think). I see our hope in Jesus not only in His dying for our sins, and Him being buried, and in Him raising from the dead three days later for our salvation, but I also believe Jesus redeems us from our actual sin or iniquity within our lives, as well. For it is written: “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).

For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17).

This is one of the reasons why I believe Jesus agreed with the truth that the keeping of the commandments is a part of eternal life, as well (Please slowly read: Matthew 19:17, and Luke 10:25-28).

Again, I used Jeremiah 17:9 back at you because you used it when I said that God knows my heart. Tell me how Jeremiah 17:9 is in context with God knowing my heart.

I don't recall doing that, but if I did, you have my humble apologies. I strive to not to make any topic about the poster but I strive to make it about the topic at hand alone. For my goal in honoring Christ in this life is to hate the false belief, and or hate the sin, but to love the person.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't have any objection to the verses. My objection is to the notion, not quite implied, that works is necessary for salvation, or that salvation is at all other than by grace by faith in Christ alone.

But the verses speak against faith alone, though. Maybe if you can explain a few of them. Note: Besides #16, and #18, I believe the rest on my list are pretty iron clad in showing that we need to live holy as a part of being in God's kingdom (after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ). So please choose to explain #1-15 and #17.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This notion of a convenience oriented belief in Jesus being a free ticket to Heaven is the most pervasive corruption of Salvation today. It exists as one extreme of the Salvation Doctrine continuum which has at the opposite end Extreme Calvinism TULIP.

After intense investigation and much prayer, I now hold to prevenient self willed choice of Jesus unto spiritual rebirth by God, with Corporate Election afterwards within The Kingdom.

Total Depravity with sentient awareness of sin. Unmerited Election of the Church body after rebirth. Limited Atonement theory, which carries the stench of the Pit is a falsehood. Grace is resistable. Saints persevere only by means of complete submission in faith.

It sounds like you agree with me. If so, it's good to have you agree with me, brother.
Also, welcome to the forums. I hope that we can sharpen iron together (God willing).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Baptism,

Well, for a long time I used to believe in water baptism; But I have come to recently believe Spirit baptism is the one and only baptism in Ephesians 4:5 (Which takes place for every believer when they accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior). For 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” I believe John's baptism in water was eventually phased out of the church with the teachings of Paul (See: 1 Corinthians 1:14-17).

Check out this thread here:

What is the “one baptism” mentioned in Ephesians 4:5? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).

Chrismation, Confession, and Holy Communion are all NECESSARY

I do not see any of these mentioned in the Bible, and I would take these as extra biblical traditions. Jesus appeared to have problems with traditions that did not line up with the Holy Scriptures.

along with faith and works.

I agree with ya there.

Clearly preached by Christ and his saint's. It's very simple. Your works justify your faith, as fell as your belief. All are important, none soley grant you salvation. The idea you can have faith in Christ, and live however you wish nor do any works (give alms, mysteries, sacraments, obey the commandments) etc. Is absolutely not a Christian stance and goes against the teachings of Christ, his apostles and the early church father's.

Where does it say that we have to obey the early church fathers in the Bible? How can we trust what they say? Are such writings divine in origin like the Bible? I think not.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I believe Jesus Christ alone is our only hope of salvation too but we define that differently (I think). I see our hope in Jesus not only in His dying for our sins, and Him being buried, and in Him raising from the dead three days later for our salvation, but I also believe Jesus redeems us from our actual sin or iniquity within our lives, as well. For it is written: “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).

For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17).

This is one of the reasons why I believe Jesus agreed with the truth that the keeping of the commandments is a part of eternal life, as well (Please slowly read: Matthew 19:17, and Luke 10:25-28).

I see the crux of Matthew 19:16-30 being

"25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I see this as showing that it's impossible for man to meet the needed requirements for salvation, therefore it could only be made possible through Jesus. Not Jesus plus our attempts at obedience, works and holiness, but Jesus alone. When it comes to our attempts at obedience, works and holiness being a coequal component of salvation, I see all kinds of problems erupting from that, because of how imperfect we are, even when we are doing our best to be obedient and righteous. Because our best just simply isn't good enough. As Jesus said, it's impossible for us.

I don't recall doing that, but if I did, you have my humble apologies. I strive to not to make any topic about the poster but I strive to make it about the topic at hand alone. For my goal in honoring Christ in this life is to hate the false belief, and or hate the sin, but to love the person.

I was talking about myself at the time, so I was the one who made me a topic. But I see I didn't say "God knows my heart" at the time, so I'm obviously getting posts mixed up.

But you did say:

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). So we cannot go off our feelings or thoughts.

And that's why I also used Jeremiah 17:9 in post #3

 

[Irminhart]

Sorry, but I am done with this thread so I will not be responding to your questions. I will never again agrue against the Sola's. Not worth the time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The deceptions at hand are incredible.

Only God can break such deceptions. I believe we need to pray and love more than ever.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Eastern Orthodox. I am not orthodox as of yet by the way. Though I have been studying Christian Theology for some time.

It doesn't matter what anyone's denomination is. What amazes me, is how it's a Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant. Read your Bible, read of the saint's and the early church father's and it will be made clear the Sola's are not Christian doctrines or beliefs held anytime prior to the reformation.

I was only wondering because I'm becoming increasingly interested in Eastern Orthodoxy. I've been enjoying listening to Bradley Jersak, Lazar Puhalo and Kallistos Ware.

 

[Irminhart]

Faith in Christ is to please Christ without being legalistic.

That isn't legalistic, you're spewing heresy.

 

[Irminhart]

I was only wondering because I'm becoming increasingly interested in Eastern Orthodoxy. I've been enjoying listening to Bradley Jersak, Lazar Puhalo and Kallistos Ware.

Fr. Josiah Trenham, Fr. Spyridon Bailey, Trisagion Films, and Orthodox Teachings of the Elders are all good people and channels to watch from. A word of warning, stay away from Jay Dyer. You might have seen things said like this elsewhere, but he has a cult like following that just circle jerk and regurgitate talking points. He is quite knowledgeable, but his community is toxic.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Works in obedience are the test of true salvation.

But to what degree do we measure our works in obedience? When it comes to passing a test, I think of A+ to F-. So when it comes to works in obedience are the test of true salvation, what's a passing grade for that test?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see the crux of Matthew 19:16-30 being

"25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I see this as showing that it's impossible for man to meet the needed requirements for salvation, therefore it could only be made possible through Jesus. Not Jesus plus our attempts at obedience, works and holiness, but Jesus alone. When it comes to our attempts at obedience, works and holiness being a coequal component of salvation, I see all kinds of problems erupting from that, because of how imperfect we are, even when we are doing our best to be obedient and righteous. Because our best just simply isn't good enough. As Jesus said, it's impossible for us.

I don't see that as the point at all. Jesus is merely showing that without Him, we cannot keep His commands. Jesus says in another point in John 15:5 that without me, you can do nothing.

Anyways, if you were to read the conclusion of the chapter in Matthew 19, it was not a Believe in me because you cannot obey me type message. It was the exact opposite of that. For the disciples had forsaken all to follow Jesus. For the rich man was not willing to forsake all that He had to follow Jesus, but the disciples were able to do so.

“When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” (Matthew 19:25-29).

Granted, it did not appear that this was a requirement for all, though. For we learn that Zacchaeus was only willing to give up half of his goods to the poor and yet Jesus said salvation had came to his house.

I was talking about myself at the time, so I was the one who made me a topic. But I see I didn't say "God knows my heart" at the time, so I'm obviously getting posts mixed up.

It's all good.

But you did say:
And that's why I also used Jeremiah 17:9 in post #3

Right, because you volunteered information about your personal life, and you said that you believed you were saved while you were prodigal. I believed this runs contrary to what the Bible teaches and I felt at the time that you were only going off your feelings or thoughts and not what the Word said. Hence, why I quoted Jeremiah 17:9. It was not meant to wound you in any way but to help you to seek out the Scriptures more on the matter. But I would not generally just quote Jeremiah 17:9 out of the blue if you did not offer any personal info. about your life. I dropped the ball in replying this way, and I should have replied in a more third person way so as not to come off as offensive. So again, my apologies.

 

[Irminhart]

You're trolling at this point