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Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    I already know what you're getting at. It's not that I don't understand your unique unorthodox conclusion, I just don't agree with it.
     
  2. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    Unlike you, I don't have a unique unorthodox position to prove.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    To all:

    The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

    [God said to Adam,]
    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

    [Eve said to the serpent,]
    "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

    And the serpent said unto the woman,
    "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

    "...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

    "For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

    "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

    “...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22).

    28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

    "But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).

    “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

    “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

    Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

    “22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

    “26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
    (Matthew 7:26-27).

    “15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

    "he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

    "everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

    "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

    6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

    "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

    "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

    41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
    42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

    “For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
    (James 4:6).

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

    16 "There is a sin unto death..."
    17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

    19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

    5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
    ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
    7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

    5 “...God;
    6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

    “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

    9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

    “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

    "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).
     
  4. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    I also don't agree with your apparent interpretation of Matthew 7:14 being that Jesus said only you and Don Corner will find the narrow path.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    67 people endorsed Dan Corner's book on Amazon. BjorkBloggen Ministries also has the same view among many others. Jesus and 12 disciples were the only ones at the time who were preaching the good news at one point. If you heard Jesus and His 12 only, you could say the same thing to them. You could say that they are going against the major religous group at that time involving the Scriptures.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, Matthew 7:14 is not a new thing. Psalms 119:99 says, “I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.”

    See, you just said that you disagreed with my interpretation on Matthew 7:14 but then you offer no counter explanation of your interpretation and how it is true according to the Bible.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Bible also says,

    “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.” (2 Timothy 3:1-9).
     
  8. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    This has nothing to do with what we are discussing, Acts 15.
    You need to support your claim with scripture, that states that circumcision saves.
    Now your supporting my position. You can leave out the phrase 'first saved', the scripture never proposes a first or second act of being saved.
    Another case of a contradictory phrase. Here is what you wrote 'while we are saved by God's grace initially and foundationally'. Either you believe the gospel and are saved, or you don't believe the gospel and are not saved. There is no middle ground, no half salvation.
    Continuing in His kindness is by faith. Which the next verse emphasizes.

    “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (Hebrews 3:12-14).​
    No Christian is ever condemned because they have sinned. Jesus arrived to remove the condemnation for sin. That is what Jesus did and you receive His righteous, the righteousness of Christ as a free gift. You must remain firm in your faith in Jesus Christ.
    You have works intermingled with faith. Your not reading the scripture as it's written. By grace through faith, not, by grace through faithful obedience.
    You seriously need to answer this question.

    The apostles gathered to resolve this matter (Jerusalem council); do Gentile Christians need to be circumcised.

    Here is what Peter said in response.

    Acts 15:10
    Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

    Was that 'yoke' that Peter was referring to, just a yoke of circumcision?

    Or is Peter inferring that the yoke is in fact the entire law?

    Galatians 5:3
    And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

    Circumcision and the entire law seem to be exactly the same thing.

    I need to know what you believe the 'yoke' to be?
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  9. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  10. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Everything you said above makes God look silly and absurd. Why would God command everyone to repent if He knows full well that only His elect will repent.

    Repentance was never given as a commandment to everyone, It was given to the reprobate so they would be without excuse and it was given to the elect as a saving grace.

    God is not mentally deficient, He doesn't make dumb commands and hope that someone takes Him seriously and takes His advice. Jesus didn't come as a used car salesman, selling salvation as a consumer product and then hoping that many would buy His offer of eternal paradise and reject eternal torment in hell.

    Jesus is not a failed salesman who couldn't reach His monthly quota because He didn't know how to sell His free product.

    Why would God freely offer salvation, fully knowing that nobody would take up His offer. He said "all have gone astray, there are none that seek God", everyone is dead in their sins and trespasses. Everyone hates God and loves to serve their sin and fulfill the lust of their heart. Why would any such person decide to go against their nature and force themselves to hate what they love and love the God they hate.

    Your theology is utterly twisted, it doesn't make any sense at all.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    What you say does not sound like what the Bible says. For it is written:

    “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:” (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).

    Then Jesus made a mistake in saying, the following words? “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).

    Jesus is giving them a do or otherwise alternative. He said except you repent, you shall all likewise perish. This means that they do not have to perish if they repent.

    Again, Calvinism teaches that the Non-Elect cannot have the ability to repent, and that the Elect cannot perish. Yet, Jesus says except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.

    So I believe Jesus, and not Calvinism.

    In addition, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says, “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

    Notice why those who perish above are perishing. It is not because God has not elected them. That is not what this verse says. It says that they perish because THEY received not the love of the truth. It also say that they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. So again. You belief in Calvinism is contradictory to the Bible.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Anyone can clearly see that Acts of the Apostles 15:1 is teaching that certain Jews were trying to deceive Gentile Christians into being circumcised in order to be saved. This is what it plainly says. There is no use arguing over what this verse plainly says. If you don't believe it, that is your choice. I believe your belief in Belief Alone-ism is not allowing you to see what Acts of the Apostles 15:1 plainly says. This is common in the Belief Alone-ism camp. Many verses must either go ignored or changed in order to fit it's theology. 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:24, Galatians 6:8-9 are just a few more of the verses in the Bible that Belief Alone Proponents cannot receive. For like in the parable of the sower, whatever seeds of the Word of God one does not believe or receive, it will be as if these verses do not even exist for that particular person.

    In any event, we can agree to disagree in love.

    May God bless you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
     
  14. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God elects to save those whom He will.

    God's good pleasure is to save those who believe at the hearing of the Gospel

    1 Corinthians 1:21 (NIV)
    21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

    God's will is to give to the Son all those believing in Him

    John 6:39-40 (Disciples' Literal New Testament)
    39 And this is the will of the One having sent Me: that as to all that He has given to Me, I will not lose anything from it, but I will raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father: that everyone seeing the Son and believing in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day”.
     
  15. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    We can discuss those other verses of yours in good time.

    Context means not cherry picking verses. The context of chapter fifteen of Acts tells us what the debate concerned. Now answer my question please.

    Acts 15:10
    Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

    Was that 'yoke' that Peter was referring to, just a yoke of circumcision?
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Acts 15:1 makes it clear that circumcision for salvation is what is going on. To read it otherwise would be a clear distortion of the text to fit a biased belief that is not in the Bible. Yes, there was also the problem of the keeping of the whole of the Law of Moses, too (the 613) in Acts 15. But this obviously was not individual moral laws like fornication because Acts 15:28-29 says,

    [28] “For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
    [29] That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).​

    Circumcision was a ceremonial law that no longer applies. In fact, there are many ceremonial laws in the 613 laws of Moses that no longer apply. This is not the case when it comes to the moral law like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.; So while the “yoke” is referring to keeping the whole of the OT Law of Moses (the 613) this does not negate that the Jews saying that they wanted the Christians circumcised in order to be saved. Neither does this “yoke” of keeping the whole of the Old Law (the 613) meant that we should not keep the Moral Law under the New Covenant like: Do not fornciate, do not murder, do not steal, etc.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Acts 15:1 says,
    “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    This verse is pretty straightforward. Certain men (Jews) said to the brethren (Gentile Christians) and said to them that they if they did not become circumcised they could not be saved. This means they were saying you had to be circumcised to be saved. There is no other way a person can read or twist this verse to say something else (unless they have a belief they want to cram into the Scriptures where it does not belong).
     
  18. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

    The Jerusalem Council

    6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” Acts of the Apostles 15:5-11
     
  19. HIM

    HIM Friend

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    And yet after everything was said and done they instructed that the new converts were to start keeping the Law.
     
  20. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    "28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

    Farewell." Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
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