Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

[Bible Highlighter]

“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

Also, Jesus talked about the heart.

“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.” (Luke 6:45).

So Jesus teaches that a good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good, and an evil man brings forth out of the evil treasure of his heart that which is evil.

Jesus states that out of the abundance of the heart does his mouth speak.
What are we speaking?
Are we speaking our own thoughts that are trying to defend bad things, or are we speaking that which is in line with God's Holy Word?

David said that he hid God's Word in his heart so that he may not sin against God.

“Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).


Note:

I am referring to overcoming grievous sin that the Bible condemns with warnings of hellfire or condemnation here (like adultery, hate, murder, etc.), and I am not referring to non-grievous sins (Although a Christian strive to battle or fight against non-grievous sins).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The mistake there is in thinking that to show something is the equivalent of what it is. In this case, what it is that saves.

Yes, good works do testify to a lively faith, but that demonstration doesn't make these works be what it is that actually qualifies anyone for salvation.

So then the works are not needed then, and one can be saved without works. Hence, this would be Belief Alone-ism.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"It" isn't all God doing good works. We are instructed, as disciples of Christ, to do good ourselves. But that isn't the issue here. The issue concerned what, on our part, qualifies us for salvation.


I don't see any reason to reach that conclusion. Christ preached the Sermon on the Mount, specifying particular acts that his listeners should engage in. Would they have done them on their own? I doubt it. Would WE know exactly what acts are God-pleasing...in the absence of any guidance? I don't think so. The reason we, as Christians, know to take care of the poor, to be humble, to tell the truth, and so on, is because we are following the guidance we've been given.

Right, which is why we have to take it upon ourselves to read the Bible to know these things and to put them into practice. God is not going to force us to read the Bible and to obey His instructions in the New Testament. My point is that many will say today that all you need is faith alone and then somehow you are miraculously going to just have good works as the after effect. This simply is not the case. We have our part to do. Even if you believe works will always be there to show a true faith, and we have our part to do in doing those good works, then good works are a part of salvation because you believe that no true faith will ever not have good works at some point.

 

[Albion]

So then the works are not needed then

They are not "needed" in the sense that doing a number of such deeds can earn you salvation, that's right.

Only faith does that. Hence the term "Faith Alone."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They are not "needed" in the sense that doing a number of such deeds can earn you salvation, that's right.

Only faith does that. Hence the term "Faith Alone."

But again, you are basically saying a true faith will always produce good works, and if not, then it is not a true faith, right? So if this is so, then works are a part of the salvation equation because there is no such thing as a true faith that does not eventually follow in having good works. But if you truly believe that the works did not save in any way, then they are simply not needed ever. This is why I believe your belief here is contradictory and or self imploding.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"It" isn't all God doing good works. We are instructed, as disciples of Christ, to do good ourselves. But that isn't the issue here. The issue concerned what, on our part, qualifies us for salvation.

Okay. So if it is not all God doing the good works, then who is he who sows in the following passage?

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Are we to assume that we are so changed that we can never sow to the flesh?
Galatians 6:8 tells me that the person who sows to his flesh will reap corruption. Why would Paul be concerned with this? Wouldn't he just tell a person to have faith alone, and BOOM they will just sow to the Spirit and reap life everlasting automatically? See, Paul here is saying that we need to sow to the Spirit after we are saved by God's grace. This sowing to the Spirit is a part of reaping life everlasting. We are told not to be weary or tired in welling doing. For we will shall reap if we faint not. This suggests the possiblity that we can faint and not reap in our well doing. So this passage to me suggests heavily that we have to do good as a part of reaping life everlasting. It's not just a belief alone or faith alone.

 

[Albion]

Right, which is why we have to take it upon ourselves to read the Bible to know these things and to put them into practice.

Okay.

God is not going to force us to read the Bible and to obey His instructions in the New Testament.

Okay.

My point is that many will say today that all you need is faith alone and then somehow you are miraculously going to just have good works as the after effect.

It's not a miracle. But if you persist in using that kind of wording you will naturally be saying there's something unexpected about the good works which follow faith.

In reality, a person puts his "money where his mouth is" all the time--in politics, human relations, whatever. If you believe in X, you are not going to behave as though it's not important to you.

So if you believe, trust, have faith in the Savior, it would be virtually impossible for you to do everything he condemned or even pay no mind to what he outlined for you to do.

If you are convinced of vegetarianism, for example, you won't be having a double burger for lunch every day. And if you DO, you aren't really a devotee of that cause, are you? If you are committed to environmentalism, what would your practice of dumping toxic material on the back lot say about your commitment? Your sincerity? Real or only alleged?

 

[Albion]

Okay. So if it is not all God doing the good works, then who is he who sows in the following passage?

“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Are we to assume that we are so changed that we can never sow to the flesh?

I've already covered this, BH.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay.


Okay.


It's not a miracle. But if you persist in using that kind of wording you will naturally be saying there's something unexpected about the good works which follow faith.

In reality, a person puts his "money where his mouth is" all the time--in politics, human relations, whatever. If you believe in X, you are not going to behave as though it's not important to you.

So if you believe, trust, have faith in the Savior, it would be virtually impossible for you to do everything he condemned or even pay no mind to what he outlined for you to do.

If you are convinced of vegetarianism, for example, you won't be having a double burger for lunch every day. And if you DO, you aren't really a devotee of that cause, are you? If you are committed to environmentalism, what would your practice of dumping toxic material on the back lot say about your commitment? Your sincerity? Real or only alleged?

I agree that a true faith will show itself by right actions. But the two are tied together and they are not separated as you want them to be. You say that a faith alone will always produce works, but these works do not save even though the faith alone saves. This is contradictory for me because you are saying that works will always be there to show the faith alone as being true. This means works are necessary to show a true faith and thus they play a part in the salvation equation. The only way for works to not play a part in salvation is if they are not needed at all whatsoever. It would mean a person can be saved without any kind of works (i.e. Hence, faith alone).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've already covered this, BH.

You already explained Galatians 6:8-9?
I must have missed the post, my friend.

I believe this passage is teaching us that we have to sow to the Spirit to reap everlasting life. This sowing to the Spirit is defined for us in the passage as doing good. So basically Paul is telling us that doing good by the Spirit is a part of reaping everlasting life.

This is basically good works, and it is tied to reaping everlasting life.
But you are saying something different than what Paul is saying here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life. If you believe the truth, you will not speak falsely. This is difficult as human memory is limited. There is a commandment, “You shall not bear false witness.” Some lawyers knew you may not testify falsely while under oath in a court of law, but they went on to make false statements while not under oath. A believer will be honest; one whose word is reliable.

You said that a believer's word will be honest and one whose word is reliable. Is this forced upon them by God or is this something that is a change by God in their life, or does the believer actually have free will in working this out themselves as a believer? Are you suggesting that honesty and being reliable with one's word (living holy) is a part of Belief Alone-ism? Or do you disagree with Belief Alone-ism?
What do you make of the verses I have provided in the OP?

 

[klutedavid]

First, when Paul uses the word “works” or “law” generically, he is referring to the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole. Second, Paul many times referred to the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ without the deeds of the Law, and he is not referring to the 2nd aspect of salvation (Sanctification, i.e. living holy by God's power after one is saved by God's grace). Third, Paul fought against what I would call: “Circumcision Salvationism” (See: Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1). This is the belief that says that a person first needs to be circumcised in order to be saved. So if a person thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making the Law or works the basis of their salvation and not Jesus Christ and His grace. This would be “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace) if one believed this way. In fact, this heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council in more detail (Please carefully read: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). For circumcision was a part of the OT Law given to Abraham and then later repeated in the Law of Moses. Circumcision is not a command given to us by Jesus Christ and his followers.

Circumcision was shorthand for the law, to be circumcised is to be under the law. Paul called the Jews the circumcised. The verdict of the Jerusalem council was not the simple statement; Gentiles do not need to be circumcised. If that is what the Jerusalem council had said I would agree with you.

The Jerusalem council answered the question of whether the Gentiles needed to be under the law to be saved. That is why the Gentiles were given four rules to abstain from. This is not difficult to comprehend in the text.

Whether you can accept it or not, anyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved.

Our salvation results from the reconciliation that Jesus initiated. That is why anyone who believes in the death and resurrection, and confesses the name of Jesus. Will be saved and there cannot be debate about this.

Everyone sins and they sin often, just accept that you are a sinner. Accept that you are saved by the grace of God.

The only way you can ever know if someone else is a Christian, is by the fruit they exhibit in their life. Not by whether they get drunk or not.

The New Testament is summarized by two words, Faith and Love.

Christ first then the love of others.

 

[PaulCyp1]

What is "belief in Jesus alone"? Belief that He existed? Even most atheists believe that. True belief in Jesus means accepting what He taught, and living as He called us to live, treating others as He told us we should.

 

[klutedavid]

What is "belief in Jesus alone"? Belief that He existed? Even most atheists believe that. True belief in Jesus means accepting what He taught, and living as He called us to live, treating others as He told us we should.

Belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Albion]

I agree that a true faith will show itself by right actions. But the two are tied together and they are not separated as you want them to be.

I don't want them to be separated, and I explained this before, saying that they cannot be separated. They "GO" together, but this doesn't mean that they together DETERMINE whether we are made acceptable to God or not.

You say that a faith alone will always produce works, but these works do not save even though the faith alone saves. This is contradictory for me because you are saying that works will always be there to show the faith alone as being true. This means works are necessary to show a true faith and thus they play a part in the salvation equation.

Necessarily present and make possible (the outcome) are two different things.

The only way for works to not play a part in salvation is if they are not needed at all whatsoever. It would mean a person can be saved without any kind of works (i.e. Hence, faith alone).

But you are purposely relying upon verbally fudging the difference between the two by using an expression like "play a part" which can make the essential and the incidental seem equal. And I never used that expression in any of my explanations.

 

[Clare73]

No. The principle called "Faith Alone" holds that it is only Faith, not works, that enables us to be saved.

It does NOT mean "faith apart from works."

Faith necessarily will produce works, but our salvation is not based upon any merits supposedly accumulated through the performance of works. So when it comes to justification, it's Faith alone which accomplishes this, but genuine Faith is never without accompanying works.

And so the works of saving faith are excluded for justification. . .
the saving faith is accounted/credited/reckoned as righteousness apart from its works.

 

[Clare73]

What is "belief in Jesus alone"? Belief that He existed? Even most atheists believe that. True belief in Jesus means accepting what He taught, and living as He called us to live, treating others as He told us we should.

It is faith in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin and right standing with God's justice.

 

[klutedavid]

And so the faith that saves is apart from their works.

Put Jesus first in everything, even in doctrine.

We are saved by what Jesus did for us and not by anything we could ever do.

You must believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to even be called a Christian. Faith comes before any works can be conducted.

Romans 9:8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Albion]

And so the faith that saves is apart from their works.

In one sense, yes, and in another sense, no. What was the meaning you had in mind when you asked the question?

 

[klutedavid]

Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:

Many believe that Paul taught to believe in Jesus alone to be saved;
But this is not true. For Paul also says...

1. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble).
2. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
3. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
4. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
5. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
6. “But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
7. “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). (Note: To know God is a part of salvation (See: John 17:3, and 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:12).
   
8. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
9. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).
10. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
11. “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
12. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
13. “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).
14. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).
15. “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:3-7).

Side Note:

Yes, Paul taught that we must believe in Jesus and His grace, and in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but this was not Belief Alone-ism with the exclusion of living holy afterwards.

Colossians 2:2-3
That their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

The belief alone in Jesus Christ is the power that saves.

Anyone who calls on the name of Jesus is saved.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

To even mention works in the same sentence as the name of Jesus Christ is utter heresy.