Paul considered that Christ's resurrection was of universal salvific benefit

[janxharris]

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Paul speaks of the raising of Christ from the dead as an established objective fact (irrespective of subjectivism), and, of which, one may benefit salvifically by believing. It is equivalent to what Paul says in Hebrews 2:9 that, 'he might taste death for everyone.' So, whether someone believes it or not, Christ's resurrection is a fact.

There is no suggestion that anyone is excluded from its intended salvific benefit in an unconditional way. If Christ did not die for all men then He was not resurrected for all men, and would have meant Paul could not have chosen to use such words as he did.

 

[abacabb3]

Do we really have real arminians here are bunch of universalists? The proof-text offered here says that the individual has to make a specific confession, yet the OP says that this applies to absolutely everyone, though there are people that don't make this confession. The claims being put forward here are totally irrational. Can we get a traditional Arminian to refute them?

 

[janxharris]

Do we really have real arminians here are bunch of universalists? The proof-text offered here says that the individual has to make a specific confession, yet the OP says that this applies to absolutely everyone, though there are people that don't make this confession. The claims being put forward here are totally irrational. Can we get a traditional Arminian to refute them?

I'm not a universalist - not sure where you get this notion from. Christ's resurrection is there to be tapped into for all men which Calvinists deny. Paul is explicit in this.

 

[abacabb3]

I'm not a universalist - not sure where you get this notion from. Christ's resurrection is there to be tapped into for all men which Calvinists deny. Paul is explicit in this.

Anyone can have faith in Christ, not everyone does and thereby not everyone is saved.

 

[janxharris]

Anyone can have faith in Christ,

If you genuinely think this then you cannot be a Calvinist. Since Calvinists limit the atonement, then not everyone can have faith.

Could you please clarify your position?

not everyone does and thereby not everyone is saved.

Correct.

Paul established the objective fact of Christ's resurrection as something that can be tapped into for any man (though his focus is on the Jews at this point, it applies to any man).

 

[janxharris]

Why does Paul express a desire that would be in direct opposition to unconditional election?

Romans 10:1-4
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

So Paul the great Calvinist, who does not consider that Christ died and rose for all men, nevertheless wants the Israelites to be saved? Why even proffer the possibility that such is possible? Why establish that Christ's resurrection is a fact that a man may tap into for salvific benefit?

Why not just say it like a Calvinist: Christ did not die salvifically for all men, therefore He did not rise salvifically for all men?

 

[AndOne]

If you genuinely think this then you cannot be a Calvinist. Since Calvinists limit the atonement, then not everyone can have faith.

Could you please clarify your position?

From a human perspective anyone can have faith - so his Calvinism need not be questioned. We do not have the ability to know who God chose or didn't choose. Since that is the case we can assume that anyone can have faith.

 

[cygnusx1]

"Universal salvivic benefit " ?

Only if your a universalist ....

 

[Hammster]

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Paul speaks of the raising of Christ from the dead as an established objective fact (irrespective of subjectivism), and, of which, one may benefit salvifically by believing. It is equivalent to what Paul says in Hebrews 2:9 that, 'he might taste death for everyone.' So, whether someone believes it or not, Christ's resurrection is a fact.

There is no suggestion that anyone is excluded from its intended salvific benefit in an unconditional way. If Christ did not die for all men then He was not resurrected for all men, and would have meant Paul could not have chosen to use such words as he did.

Romans 10:9 is limited in and of itself. Only believers will benefit. So non-believers are excluded.

 

[janxharris]

Romans 10:9 is limited in and of itself. Only believers will benefit. So non-believers are excluded.

Paul doesn't say that. He presents the objective fact of Christ's resurrection which one may tap into for salvific benefit. You don't consider that Christ rose for all men.

 

[abacabb3]

From a human perspective anyone can have faith - so his Calvinism need not be questioned. We do not have the ability to know who God chose or didn't choose. Since that is the case we can assume that anyone can have faith.

Thank you for explaining. The Bible plainly says that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. So, that is available to everyone. We also know that all people are unrighteous and no one seeks God (Romans 3:11). So, no one will confess Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[janxharris]

"Universal salvivic benefit " ?

Only if your a universalist ....

No, universalists believe all men will be saved. I don't.

 

[janxharris]

Thank you for explaining. The Bible plainly says that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. So, that is available to everyone. We also know that all people are unrighteous and no one seeks God (Romans 3:11). So, no one will confess Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

No, you think God picked out some men for salvation and left the rest. There is no need to wrap the theology up in a euphemism.

You keep forgetting to add, '...who is also elect...'

You meant this:
The Bible plainly says that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord and is also elect will be saved. So, that is available to everyone who is elect.

I think we can take Paul at his word - that Christ rose from the dead which anyone can tap into for salvific benefit. Anything else would make Paul disingenuous.

 

[Hammster]

Paul doesn't say that. He presents the objective fact of Christ's resurrection which one may tap into for salvific benefit. You don't consider that Christ rose for all men.

Where does it say Christ rose for all men?

 

[janxharris]

Where does it say Christ rose for all men?

If it were not for all then how can we take Paul's words at the beginning of the chapter as sincere. He desires for the Israelites to be saved. You are saying that God did not bother with some of them. It would seem that Paul is at odds with your theology.

We know that Paul preached to unbelievers and we know what he preached.

1 Corinthians 15:11
Whether, then, it is I or they, this (being vv.3-4) is what we preach and this is what you believed.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Why would you dare to limit the scope of the resurrection?

 

[Hammster]

If it were not for all then how can we take Paul's words at the beginning of the chapter as sincere. He desires for the Israelites to be saved. You are saying that God did not bother with some of them. It would seem that Paul is at odds with your theology.

We know that Paul preached to unbelievers and we know what he preached.

1 Corinthians 15:11
Whether, then, it is I or they, this (being vv.3-4) is what we preach and this is what you believed.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Why would you dare to limit the scope of the resurrection?

Again, where does it say He rose for all men?

 

[janxharris]

Again, where does it say He rose for all men?

That he rose for all would be the natural inference. That he rose for less than all makes Paul insincere.

Where does it say he rose for less than all? What does the context suggest as to the extent of the scope of the resurrection?

 

[Hammster]

That he rose for all would be the natural inference. That he rose for less than all makes Paul insincere.

Where does it say he rose for less than all? What does the context suggest as to the extent of the scope of the resurrection?

He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (Romans 4:25 HCSB)

I'm pretty sure that this isn't universal.

 

[janxharris]

He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (Romans 4:25 HCSB)

I'm pretty sure that this isn't universal.

Nothing there that limits the scope. Paul states the resurrection as an objective fact that a man may tap into in order that he might be saved.

This is good news isn't it? Or do you disagree?

Perhaps Paul forgot to add that, although he desired that the Israelites may be saved, there was no such chance of it because Jesus did not rise from the dead for all men. That would have cleared up any confusion would it not?

Calvinism's theology does not hold up to close scrutiny.

 

[janxharris]

He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (Romans 4:25 HCSB)

I'm pretty sure that this isn't universal.

Pretty sure isn't good enough.