Patriotism replaces Worship of God - an example

[W2L]

And not to even "think" about feeding the hungry? Where do you get these doctrines?

You are misquoting me with your strawman. I never said anything like that.

 

[SteveIndy]

First, you need to learn what politics is and how it works in our country. Presidents cannot vote against abortion. They can only appoint good judges to the Supreme Court.

Donald Trump is committed to appointing conservative hight and lower court judges. The only way to fight the abortion holocaust in America is through the reelection of Donald Trump. Pray for him, vote for him and encourage others to vote for him. That is the only path to end this despicable holocaust.

This argument always sounds good until you examine the facts. Of course, what real Christian wouldn't oppose abortion, but the term "pro-life" is a misnomer. I've never met a Calvinist yet that was pro-life. What the term should be is "pro-live-birth." Calvin himself was a murderer along with Zwingli and Luther. They definitely were not pro-life. Now, Jesus was our pro-life example of which no one follows. All of this abortion issue by Christians is just a political stance they take but they have no reservations about taking a life otherwise. Yes, abortion is one aspect of the pro-life issue but do you believe in taking life in war, self-defense, or capital punishment? I am sure that you are not really pro-life as Jesus was pro-life. I have noticed that the Pro-Life movement has stopped using this term as much as they used to, and that is good, because it made liars out them.

 

[pat34lee]

Any church doctrine that claims to be first church, or the real church, i reject that claim. I also reject politics in the church, although i would be against abortion, but politics does a lot of harm to the body as well.

Organized churches also tend to be corporations, which are
not bodies of God, but creations of the state. The body is the
people who believe and follow God and do his will, spelled
out in both the Old and New Testaments.

 

[pat34lee]

Yes, abortion is one aspect of the pro-life issue but do you believe in taking life in war, self-defense, or capital punishment? I am sure that you are not really pro-life as Jesus was pro-life. I have noticed that the Pro-Life movement has stopped using this term as much as they used to, and that is good, because it made liars out them.

Jesus was never against taking life in war, self-defense or
as punishment for criminal acts. When he returns, it will
be with a sword to kill his enemies. As a life cannot be
returned, we are to be extremely cautious before taking
one for any reason.

 

[SteveIndy]

Jesus was never against taking life in war, self-defense or
as punishment for criminal acts. When he returns, it will
be with a sword to kill his enemies. As a life cannot be
returned, we are to be extremely cautious before taking
one for any reason.

If Jesus was not against killing then what was the sixth commandment all about? If Jesus was not against killing then why did He tell His disciples when they asked to call down fire on the Samaritans that, "The Son of man has not come to destroy men's lives but to save them? Why did Jesus stop Peter from using the sword when he was trying to protect Jesus in the garden? Why did Paul say the "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual"? Why did Jesus tell Pilate when asked if He was a King, "If My kingdom was of this would then would My disciples fight"? Why do the writings of the first 300 years of Christianity speak loudly about not fighting or being a member of the military? Christ's first advent was as a Lamb and that is the life we are to emulate and follow when Christ returns it will be as the Lion of Judah but as long as He has not returned we are to be as lambs and doves and rather than kill and destroy men's lives we are to pick up our own cross and follow the Master who only healed and forgave. Christianity has gotten turned around, just as the Bible says that it would be in the last days, good would become evil and evil good.

 

[SteveIndy]

Jesus was never against taking life in war, self-defense or
as punishment for criminal acts. When he returns, it will
be with a sword to kill his enemies. As a life cannot be
returned, we are to be extremely cautious before taking
one for any reason.

The tagline that you use speaks in my defense unless you do not really believe it. Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of Yahuah Eloheinu

 

[pat34lee]

If Jesus was not against killing then what was the sixth commandment all about? If Jesus was not against killing then why did He tell His disciples when they asked to call down fire on the Samaritans that, "The Son of man has not come to destroy men's lives but to save them? Why did Jesus stop Peter from using the sword when he was trying to protect Jesus in the garden? Why did Paul say the "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual"? Why did Jesus tell Pilate when asked if He was a King, "If My kingdom was of this would then would My disciples fight"? Why do the writings of the first 300 years of Christianity speak loudly about not fighting or being a member of the military? Christ's first advent was as a Lamb and that is the life we are to emulate and follow when Christ returns it will be as the Lion of Judah but as long as He has not returned we are to be as lambs and doves and rather than kill and destroy men's lives we are to pick up our own cross and follow the Master who only healed and forgave. Christianity has gotten turned around, just as the Bible says that it would be in the last days, good would become evil and evil good.

Read my words again, and closer:
"Jesus was never against taking life in war, self-defense or
as punishment for criminal acts."

We are not to seek vengeance for wrongs, but we not only
are allowed to protect our families; we must do so.

Jesus in the garden, good example. Go back a few verses and
see who told them to bring the swords. Luke 22:36-38

"Turn the other cheek has nothing to do with self-defense.
It is about being insulted and belittled.

Jesus and the apostles had reason not to resist when they
were arrested and tormented by the Pharisees. Jesus died
for our sins. His life's purpose went to the cross and beyond.
It didn't stop with his death or even his resurrection.

Good and evil are defined in the Torah, or Old Testament.
Change that, and you change everything.

 

[pat34lee]

The tagline that you use speaks in my defense unless you do not really believe it. Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of Yahuah Eloheinu

My favorite verse. You know that David wrote
most of the Psalms, I presume. David killed
Goliath, and David was not even a soldier. He
was a shepherd. He had also killed a bear and
a lion single-handedly. He committed adultery
and had her husband set up to be killed by the
enemy army.

Moses gave the ten commands to Israel, including
"Do not murder."

What happened the first time he came back with
them and saw the calf they were worshipping?
He had the Levites draw swords and kill.
Exodus 32:27-29

 

[SteveIndy]

Jesus in the garden, good example. Go back a few verses and
see who told them to bring the swords. Luke 22:36-38

"Turn the other cheek has nothing to do with self-defense.
It is about being insulted and belittled.

Jesus and the apostles had reason not to resist when they
were arrested and tormented by the Pharisees. Jesus died
for our sins. His life's purpose went to the cross and beyond.
It didn't stop with his death or even his resurrection.

Good and evil are defined in the Torah, or Old Testament.
Change that, and you change everything.

Absolutely, Jesus in the garden is a good example. Let's ask the question, Why did Jesus say take a sword? He gives us the answer in verse 37 for the fulfillment of prophecy. When the apostles said here are two swords Jesus said that was enough. Enough for what, to fulfill prophecy. The very next verses find Peter cutting off the ear of the High Priest's servant, prophecy fulfilled. And, who said that "turn the other cheek" has nothing to do with self-defense? No one is trying to change the definition of good and evil what we trying to do is define our response to good and evil. That answer is given to us also. We are instructed to overcome evil with good, just as Christ did. Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, referenced the O.T. several times when He abrogated the law by saying, "You have it heard" where did they hear it said, in the O.T. of course. Then He said, "But I say . . . ." In this sermon, Jesus overrode the law and changed it. The reason for this is described in Hebrews when the writer explains that a last will and "testament" can be changed as long as the testator is alive but once the testator dies then it is unchangeable by anyone. Jesus did change His last will and "testament" as we just saw in His great sermon, then He died. All meaning and understanding must come from the N.T. The high court of God will disallow the use of an invalid document on the day of judgment. Our model of life while in this world is the life of Christ and Christ came to save men's lives and not destroy men. He was a Lamb and a dove and I have not yet seen a lamb or a dove kill anything.

 

[SteveIndy]

My favorite verse. You know that David wrote
most of the Psalms, I presume. David killed
Goliath, and David was not even a soldier. He
was a shepherd. He had also killed a bear and
a lion single-handedly. He committed adultery
and had her husband set up to be killed by the
enemy army.

Moses gave the ten commands to Israel, including
"Do not murder."

What happened the first time he came back with
them and saw the calf they were worshipping?
He had the Levites draw swords and kill.
Exodus 32:27-29

You need to make your theology conform to the N.T. and not make the N.T. conform to the O.T.

 

[Sketcher]

This doesn't demonstrate that patriotism itself is idolatrous. It simply means that someone took a worship song and wrote secular lyrics to it to make money.

 

[pat34lee]

Absolutely, Jesus in the garden is a good example. Let's ask the question, Why did Jesus say take a sword? He gives us the answer in verse 37 for the fulfillment of prophecy. When the apostles said here are two swords Jesus said that was enough. Enough for what, to fulfill prophecy. The very next verses find Peter cutting off the ear of the High Priest's servant, prophecy fulfilled. And, who said that "turn the other cheek" has nothing to do with self-defense? No one is trying to change the definition of good and evil what we trying to do is define our response to good and evil. That answer is given to us also. We are instructed to overcome evil with good, just as Christ did. Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, referenced the O.T. several times when He abrogated the law by saying, "You have it heard" where did they hear it said, in the O.T. of course. Then He said, "But I say . . . ." In this sermon, Jesus overrode the law and changed it. The reason for this is described in Hebrews when the writer explains that a last will and "testament" can be changed as long as the testator is alive but once the testator dies then it is unchangeable by anyone. Jesus did change His last will and "testament" as we just saw in His great sermon, then He died. All meaning and understanding must come from the N.T. The high court of God will disallow the use of an invalid document on the day of judgment. Our model of life while in this world is the life of Christ and Christ came to save men's lives and not destroy men. He was a Lamb and a dove and I have not yet seen a lamb or a dove kill anything.

Matthew 10:24

"You have heard" does not mean the law. It is about the
traditions of the elders and the Pharisees. If Yeshua had
attempted to change a single law, he would have been
proven a false messiah, and every disciple would have
stoned him. Rightfully, at that.

There is nothing invalidated in the Torah. When you try
to use the NT to define the OT, you get nonsense. There
is nothing 'new' in the NT. It all comes from the beginning.

Do you at least understand that when he returns, it won't
be as a dove, a lamb or a sacrifice, but a King and the Lion
of Judah? Where he brought grace before, he will bring a
sword and judgment and punishment.

 

[pat34lee]

You need to make your theology conform to the N.T. and not make the N.T. conform to the O.T.

Exactly backwards. There is nothing new under the sun.
The gospel begins in Genesis and continues through Revelation.
If you don't know the Elohim of Torah, you don't know Yahweh.
And if you don't know Yahweh, you don't know Yeshua (Jesus).
Without Torah, you have nothing but empty religion because
you have placed your trust in man.

 

[SteveIndy]

Matthew 10:24

"You have heard" does not mean the law. It is about the
traditions of the elders and the Pharisees. If Yeshua had
attempted to change a single law, he would have been
proven a false messiah, and every disciple would have
stoned him. Rightfully, at that.

There is nothing invalidated in the Torah. When you try
to use the NT to define the OT, you get nonsense. There
is nothing 'new' in the NT. It all comes from the beginning.

Do you at least understand that when he returns, it won't
be as a dove, a lamb or a sacrifice, but a King and the Lion
of Judah? Where he brought grace before, he will bring a
sword and judgment and punishment.

You, are absolutely wrong as is plain to a child. Jesus said "You have heard it said 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say do not resist an evil person." This is not tradition, He is quoting Moses as He does in the other quotes. Also, I quoted the book of Hebrews to you about the "will" but the author at the beginning of Hebrews states that "In former times God spoke to us in fragments and varied fashion through the prophets (and Moses was a prophet) but in these last days He has spoken by His Son." Jesus also says of John the Baptist, "The Law and the Prophets were until John but in these days every man is pressing into the kingdom." Also, Jesus says in Hebrews that "Nothing is made perfect through the Law . . . ." Jesus came to bring the O.T. out of the shadows and into the substance. Jesus chided the Pharisees for not knowing the Scriptures, i.e. the O.T. because if they knew the Scriptures then they would have known that those writings spoke of Him. Jesus is the fulfillment of the O.T. if you can see it? You cannot understand the O.T. until you have the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Yes, I do understand that when Jesus returns it will be as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, but the Lion is not who we are to emulate, it is the Lamb. And, yes, you must see the O.T. through the eyes of the N.T. Jesus is the New Wine of which it is said that the old wineskin cannot contain and of which is illustrated that you should not plow with an ox and an ass or try and patch a hole with wrong materials because it will ruin the garment when it shrinks in upon itself and destroy both the new and the old.

 

[pat34lee]

You, are absolutely wrong as is plain to a child. Jesus said "You have heard it said 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say do not resist an evil person." This is not tradition, He is quoting Moses as He does in the other quotes. Also, I quoted the book of Hebrews to you about the "will" but the author at the beginning of Hebrews states that "In former times God spoke to us in fragments and varied fashion through the prophets (and Moses was a prophet) but in these last days He has spoken by His Son." Jesus also says of John the Baptist, "The Law and the Prophets were until John but in these days every man is pressing into the kingdom." Also, Jesus says in Hebrews that "Nothing is made perfect through the Law . . . ." Jesus came to bring the O.T. out of the shadows and into the substance. Jesus chided the Pharisees for not knowing the Scriptures, i.e. the O.T. because if they knew the Scriptures then they would have known that those writings spoke of Him. Jesus is the fulfillment of the O.T. if you can see it? You cannot understand the O.T. until you have the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Yes, I do understand that when Jesus returns it will be as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, but the Lion is not who we are to emulate, it is the Lamb. And, yes, you must see the O.T. through the eyes of the N.T. Jesus is the New Wine of which it is said that the old wineskin cannot contain and of which is illustrated that you should not plow with an ox and an ass or try and patch a hole with wrong materials because it will ruin the garment when it shrinks in upon itself and destroy both the new and the old.

What is fulfillment to you? Ended?
If your life was fulfilled, would you have nothing left to live for?

One thing we haven't mentioned:
When does/did the new covenant come into effect?
And who is it with?
Jeremiah 31:31