Patriotism replaces Worship of God - an example

[ArmenianJohn]

We see it happening all around us today but it is, unfortunately, nothing new in America. It's just more extreme now than it's ever been.

An old example of this is the song "This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land" by Woody Guthrie. The song was originally a worship song called "Oh My Loving Brother" by the Carter Family. (The Carter Family is June Carter's family - she was Johnny Cash's wife.)

Consider the lyrics to the original song and watch the video to see that the song is the same one although it is known by its patriotic lyrics and not by the original Christian lyrics.

LYRICS:
Oh, my loving mother, when the world's on fire
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

I'm going to heaven when the world's on fire
And I want God's bosom to be my pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

[Instrumental break]

Oh, my loving brother, when the world's on fire
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

Oh, my loving sinner, when the world's on fire
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

[Instrumental break]

Don't you want to go to heaven when the world's on fire
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

 

[Strathos]

I've seen many people treat Americans like God's chosen people and act like the Founding Fathers were Prophets or something. It's kind of troubling.

 

[samir]

I've seen many people treat Americans like God's chosen people and act like the Founding Fathers were Prophets or something. It's kind of troubling.

The belief that America is the promised land and the new Israel and that Americans are God's chosen people has been around since the Puritans arrived 400 years ago. Could it explain why America is #1 and so much better than everyone else?

II Samuel 7:10: ‘Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more’ ” https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/the-colonial-view-of-america-as-a-new-israel

"Visitors to America in the early years of its formation often wrote about how religious the Americans were and how much they identified their country as the new Israel, and used Hebrew Bible terms to describe America as "the promised land" and "the chosen people." israel

 

[Strathos]

If America is the promised land and the new Israel then wouldn't that makes us God's country and Americans God's chosen people? How else do you explain why America is #1 and so much better than everyone else?

By what standards are you measuring this? Because in a vast amount of categories it's not true at all.

America isn't mentioned in the Bible, despite what you might want to believe.

 

[bekkilyn]

By what standards are you measuring this? Because in a vast amount of categories it's not true at all.

America isn't mentioned in the Bible, despite what you might want to believe.

I believe we (puritans, founders, etc.) raised ourselves up and just decided it was true without any actual biblical basis.

It would probably be more accurate to equate the U.S. with New Babylon than New Jerusalem if we're going to equate ourselves with anything in scripture.

 

[samir]

By what standards are you measuring this? Because in a vast amount of categories it's not true at all.

Everyone always says we are #1.
Wealthiest country in the world
Strongest military in the world
Best healthcare system in the world
World's superpower
World's police

One good standard is immigration. The rest of the world wants to move to America because we're the bestest and smartest country in the world.

America isn't mentioned in the Bible, despite what you might want to believe.

I was mostly just saying the belief that the promised land in the Bible refers to America has been around for a long time since the Puritans arrived 400 years ago.

 

[bekkilyn]

Best healthcare system in the world

LOL

Thanks for letting me get in one good laugh for the day.

 

[Hank77]

We see it happening all around us today but it is, unfortunately, nothing new in America. It's just more extreme now than it's ever been.

An old example of this is the song "This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land" by Woody Guthrie. The song was originally a worship song called "Oh My Loving Brother" by the Carter Family. (The Carter Family is June Carter's family - she was Johnny Cash's wife.)

Consider the lyrics to the original song and watch the video to see that the song is the same one although it is known by its patriotic lyrics and not by the original Christian lyrics.

LYRICS:
Oh, my loving mother, when the world's on fire
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

I'm going to heaven when the world's on fire
And I want God's bosom to be my pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

[Instrumental break]

Oh, my loving brother, when the world's on fire
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

Oh, my loving sinner, when the world's on fire
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

[Instrumental break]

Don't you want to go to heaven when the world's on fire
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
Tide me over in the Rock of Ages
Rock of Ages cleft for me

Guthrie used the same melody. It's not like he was trying to counter the Carter's song.
Guthrie's original lyrics were written about social injustice. The original is archived in the Smithsonian.

Last verse...
In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
By the relief office, I'd seen my people.
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
Is this land made for you and me?

 

[bekkilyn]

There is a lot of idealism concerning America, and I don't believe there is anything wrong with being idealistic and having idealistic goals, but I also believe that where we run into the most trouble is when we mistake the idealism for the reality that the people are actually living.

 

[pat34lee]

We see it happening all around us today but it is, unfortunately, nothing new in America. It's just more extreme now than it's ever been.

It's not very often anyone has the audacity to call patriotism
a bad thing; much less try to prove it. You need to speak to
older people who remember WWII and look up the history of
WWI, the Civil War and the American Revolution. The Alamo
is another good example.

 

[Hank77]

It's not very often anyone has the audacity to call patriotism
a bad thing; much less try to prove it. You need to speak to
older people who remember WWII and look up the history of
WWI, the Civil War and the American Revolution. The Alamo
is another good example.

Do you do consider it patriotic to do everything we can to make our country better for all citizens of our country?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

It's not very often anyone has the audacity to call patriotism
a bad thing; much less try to prove it. You need to speak to
older people who remember WWII and look up the history of
WWI, the Civil War and the American Revolution. The Alamo
is another good example.

How is it audacious to call patriotism a bad thing, especially when it has become an idol?

I've spoken with many older people who remember WWII and I know the history of WWI where many of my own family were slaughtered by the Turks because of their extreme nationalism and resultant xenophobia and racism against my people. I think you need to talk to someone who is from a race or ethnicity that has suffered massively at the hands of overzealous, racist, bigoted, hateful "patriots" and, if you listen with an open mind, maybe you will understand what's BAD about patriotism. The problem is you have no personal connection to what's bad about patriotism and you ignore anyone who explains it to you by dismissing them out of hand as audacious.

 

[jazzflower92]

How is it audacious to call patriotism a bad thing, especially when it has become an idol?

I've spoken with many older people who remember WWII and I know the history of WWI where many of my own family were slaughtered by the Turks because of their extreme nationalism and resultant xenophobia and racism against my people. I think you need to talk to someone who is from a race or ethnicity that has suffered massively at the hands of overzealous, racist, bigoted, hateful "patriots" and, if you listen with an open mind, maybe you will understand what's BAD about patriotism. The problem is you have no personal connection to what's bad about patriotism and you ignore anyone who explains it to you by dismissing them out of hand as audacious.

I think what you are describing is nationalism, and not patriotism. Patriotism can be positive, while nationalism is really inherently toxic.

 

[pat34lee]

Do you do consider it patriotic to do everything we can to make our country better for all citizens of our country?

I posted this thought in another thread:
Nothing is universal. Nothing we can do will benefit
all people living here.

"Better" is an undefined concept. What is better depends
on the individual and their circumstances.

Does 'all citizens' include illegals or their children who
should also be illegal regardless how the law reads today?

 

[pat34lee]

How is it audacious to call patriotism a bad thing, especially when it has become an idol?

I've spoken with many older people who remember WWII and I know the history of WWI where many of my own family were slaughtered by the Turks because of their extreme nationalism and resultant xenophobia and racism against my people. I think you need to talk to someone who is from a race or ethnicity that has suffered massively at the hands of overzealous, racist, bigoted, hateful "patriots" and, if you listen with an open mind, maybe you will understand what's BAD about patriotism. The problem is you have no personal connection to what's bad about patriotism and you ignore anyone who explains it to you by dismissing them out of hand as audacious.

Extremes are a problem, yes.
What you're describing is no longer patriotism.
You describe it well as xenophobia and racism.

 

[Hank77]

I posted this thought in another thread:
Nothing is universal. Nothing we can do will benefit
all people living here.

"Better" is an undefined concept. What is better depends
on the individual and their circumstances.

Does 'all citizens' include illegals or their children who
should also be illegal regardless how the law reads today?

I didn't think so.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I think what you are describing is nationalism, and not patriotism. Patriotism can be positive, while nationalism is really inherently toxic.

Technically that would be true, but the reality today is that nationalists call themselves "patriots", so today nationalism is called "patriotism". Therefore, I'll use the term "patriotism" when we're talking about nationalism that's being mislabeled, so as to remain consistent with the current usage of the term.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Extremes are a problem, yes.
What you're describing is no longer patriotism.
You describe it well as xenophobia and racism.

Nationalism is today called "patriotism". That's why I'm using the term "patriotism". Real patriotism today is being shown by those who are protesting the nationalistic idol worship of the flag, anthem, etc. The nationalists are the ones like Trump who are pushing idol worship of all things American as well as their xenophobia, racism, etc.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Patriotism isn't so bad; but American nationalism frequently becomes effectively a cult-like nationalism. The Cult of America holds great power in this country, and challenging it is likely to instigate strong animosity by its adherents.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[revanneosl]

Does 'all citizens' include illegals or their children who
should also be illegal regardless how the law reads today?

Down the slippery slope from patriotism to nationalism to nativism.