Patriarchs Meletios IV and Athenagoras I never condemned or excommunicated?

[TheLostCoin]

Quick question - because we are on the topic of Freemasonry and Conspiracies, what are your guys' thoughts on the legitimacy of the Alta Vendita? Is it a real document? Is it a forgery? Does it represent the actual goals of Freemasonry, or is it just representative of the thoughts of a specific lodge? And while this was specific to the Roman Catholic Church, do you think such attempts at subversion have been happening in the Greek Orthodox Church?

http://www.jar2.com/Files/NWO/Permanent_Instruction_of_the_Alta_Vendita.pdf

 

[JasonV]

...the legitimacy of the Alta Vendita? Is it a real document? Is it a forgery?

Probably a forgery, like the Protocols of Zion.

Does it represent the actual goals of Freemasonry, or is it just representative of the thoughts of a specific lodge?

Freemasons, specifically the run-of-the-mill old fogeys you see in Anytown, USA, tend to be rather less malicious than most conspirators want to believe. They are basically the worlds foremost Ecumenists. They aren't calling for an end to any one religion, so much as exalting the idea of a belief in some sort of "Grand Architect of the Universe". I would presume if this were a real document leaked to the public, it was representative of a single lodge, and probably a pseudo-masonic one, such as the Rite of Memphis-Mizraim, or the Ordo Templi Orientis.

And while this was specific to the Roman Catholic Church, do you think such attempts at subversion have been happening in the Greek Orthodox Church?

Without a doubt.

 

[Euthymios]

We're about as Masonic as American beer is to beer. We have a Masonic like initiation rite but no degrees, no craft, nothing else. We do philanthropic service and promote scholarships for parish members.

Although personally, I love this conspiracy theory from Pizzagate that calls AHEPA, "a virtually unknown powerful international ancient Greek ultra secret Masonic society". In our last meeting, we spent 30 minutes discussing the price that our kitchen should charge for selling blocks of feta cheese. I guess I'm not where the action is at!

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! James ALEFANTIS And New Hampshire Alderman pizza parlor owner ARE BOTH GREEK MEMBERS OF THE HELLENIC SOCIETY, An Ancient Society.
UPDATE: James A. Alefantis of Comet Ping Pong Pizza in Washington DC at the heart of General Flynn’s PIZZAGATE, and his family are connected to a virtually unknown powerful international ancient Greek ultra secret Masonic society, Order of the AHEPA, the American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association. They are also associated with the Hellenic Orthodox Church of Annunciation (Grandmother Helen Pappas Alefantis).

Psalti Chrysostom, American beer is beer, so I am concerned about your analogy. I noticed that the Ahepa website uses vague language but doesn't come right out denying to be Masonic. I am also concerned that they give vows, like Masons. Christ taught us not to make vows. He said swear not at all. (Matthew 5:34).​

 

[Euthymios]

Any ideas why the GOA doesnt have the same issue with Freemasonry as other jurisdictions? Was Freemasonry, and other lodges such as Elks, a way for Greeks to fit into American society?

Is Ahepa Masonic? I asked them but never heard back. That's a problem with the Orthodox, when they are asked questions of a controversial nature, they freeze-up, never answer, and nothing ever gets resolved. There is a real problem of standoffishness with Orthodox clergy. I wish they were more humble and loving like Christ. I have found very few Orthodox clergy who put their neighbor before themselves.

 

[The Liturgist]

. So they adapted churches to match more with the US style (pews and organs),

Actually Greeks in Iona and in Western Europe had organs, and in antiquity the Hagia Sophia had an organ in the Narthex that was played while the people assembled there before the service.

There is also some very beautiful Greek Orthodox liturgical music by Tikey Zes and other composers that uses the organ.

Now obviously I don’t want to see organs in the Slavonic Orthodox churches, but in the Greek church, they have some exquisite organ music. I also would note that most iconoclasts in the Western church also went after the organs, which is why the most iconoclastic denominations of the “four bare walls and a sermon” type do not have them. They objected to organs for the same reason they objected to iconography, destroying both painted iconography and stained glass windows, as well as the distinctly Western statuary (which the EO normally avoids).

 

[The Liturgist]

this is something for the bishops to do. but it took Origen more than 200 years to be formally condemned, but that didn't make him any less the heretic.

The thing about Origen that doubtless slowed things down I expect was the regard he was held in by the Cappadocians, who compiled his best writings in the Philocalia.* Likewise Theodore of Mopsuestia was an extremely close friend of St. John Chrysostom, and the anathema against him caused a 30 year schism in Spain, the Three Chapters Controversy.

I doubt either of the bishops in this thread benefit from the equivalence. Indeed there are some Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics who wish Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia had not been anathematized.


*Readers should note that I am referring to the Philocalia with a c, not to be confused with the Philokalia with a k, which is a completely different anthology which in its initial Greek form was the work of the 18th century Athonite monks St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite and St. Macarius of Corinth, and which does not (unless the version translated by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is defective) contain Origen.