LDS Patriarchial Blessings: Genuine Prophecy or Wishful Thinking ???

[stage five]

Just like Jesus.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

And they leave out all the weird stuff. Mormonism, Scientology and other cults love to have their super secret things. That's part of the allure.

It's not sacred, it's just Masonic in nature. Secrecy for secrecy's sake.

We live in a religiously tolerant society. There is no reason to hide ANY of these things.

Thank you for that; I had not seen that video; I was going to post some myself.

To avoid derailimg this thread, lets do a separate thread on Mormon temple services with leaked videos.

 

[civilwarbuff]

They wouldn't let you in without a Temple Reccommend.

ato get that, you have to be baptized as a Mormon and attend your local meeting house every Sunday for a year, and rhen the "Bishop" or stake-president, if you are of good moral character, will consider granting such a request.

Another strange thing about Mormonism: Mormons are, if memory serves from my own encounters with them, required to disclose their criminal history to their bishop before being baptized; the Mormons will apprently reject people with criminal records not deemed sufficiently "repentent" or something like that.

By the time you get a Temple Reccommend, you have to be able to concince the Bishop you are a true believer. This means in all probability that you:

• Have given up alcohol, tobacco and caffeine
• Have shaved your facial hair
• Are wearing Mormon undergarments
• Have been thoroughly catechized in the Doctrine and Covenants,, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, amd other Mormon scripture,
• Have received both the Aaronic Priesthood (Diaconate) and Melchizedek Priesthood (Elder).
• Are tithing with the church.

Your bishop can revoke your temple recommend by the way if he feels it is appropriate.

There is one main exception to this: Mormons without a Temple Reccommend can go to the Temple to get baptized and to participate in proxy baptisms.

Now, to get a Patriarchal Blessing, I believe a Mormon must have been in the church for several years, and has to apply for one, but they are usually granted. Issuimg such blessings is nowadays the main responsibility of the Mormon apatriarchs; in the 19th century they had other, more important duties, but now these are primarily exercised by the Church President and the Quorum of Twelve.

Well, I am done in on the alcohol and caffeine part....

 

[withwonderingawe]

There are events which the Lord asks us to keep sacred and holy.

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." matt 7

Matt 16
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Matt 17
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Luke 8
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

John 20
30 ¶And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


*Eph 4
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

What are these different callings?

Acts 21
“….and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.”

2Tim 1 &4

“Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands….Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, ……Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles…..But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.”

Paul was an apostles and both Timothy and Philip were evangelist, this holy calling was give by the hand of Paul.

In our theology an Evangelist and a Patriarch are one and the same thing. When a young person reaches the age of about 14 and feels the need for advice and guidance they can go into a Patriarch and receive a blessing which is designed just for them. They are not secret, we share them among our family members and from time to time some one will use theirs in a talk or giving a lesson. But, they are also to be considered sacred as scriptures are sacred it that they are given by “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” 2Peter 1

 

[civilwarbuff]

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." matt 7

I don't think he was talking about secret rituals and handshakes....

 

[withwonderingawe]

I don't think he was talking about secret rituals and handshakes....

Since you have no concept of respect and what is sacred you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[mmksparbud]

Thins that are sacred are talked about, not hidden. The times that Christ said to not talk about something was due to the hindrance to His work---after that---He said to tell it to the world. He called all to Him. He was not exclusive, He never said do this in secret--except for your prayers and good deeds. He never said a thing about keeping people away from what they practiced, but opened up everything to inspection and to verify the truth of things. One of the big things with gangs, and cults is secrecy---and it's also the best friend of the evil. Child molesters, wife beaters, rapists, and so on----keep it secret. Secrecy is a weapon of self protection. Christ has nothing to protect Himself from. The veil in the Temple was ripped from top to bottom, exposing the innermost, sacred chamber----it was ended----the temple service no longer needed, no loner sacred. We are a light to the world now, we do not hide under a bushel---nor under the banner of making manmade rituals "sacred".

 

[Ironhold]

It's still someone's private blessing. And there are lots of things on the internet which should be kept private and not on the internet at all (like a mountain of sexual things).

Case in point: Gawker Media.

It wasn't enough for them to just discuss a celebrity sex tape they got their hands on. No, they had to put two minutes of it on their website. Not only did they just lose the invasion of privacy lawsuit the celebrity filed against them, unless the size of the judgement is modified (it's presently at $115 million) it will force them into bankruptcy. I actually spoke with my branch president earlier about this, as while I do feel sorry for those employees who will lose their jobs because of it I'm having a hard time feeling sorry that the company itself is going to die thanks to one editor's decision.

So yes, the courts did indeed just rule that there's a fine line between discussing and invading.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Parriarchal blessings should very much be discussed as they are an aspect of Mormonism which is unusual, and potentially destructive; we don't know enough about these blessings or their contents as a whole. but it looks like they contain advice. Given that Mormons cannot present a compelling argument as to why Moroni should not have been anathematized by Joseph Smith under Galatians 1:8, there is a legitimate cause for concern about the adverse impact these patriarchal blessings might have on the lives of Mormon laity if they are in fact the result of demonically suggested false prophecy (which, forgive me, the Book of Mormon and other related writings appear to be, given the sweeping contradictions and the canonical Gospel of the Christian church).

Commander Xenophon, if you have any questions about Mormonism, you're free to ask. Like I said, Mormons spend lots of effort to answer questions. The only things would such down conversation are (these apply to all conversations about all subjects with all people, nothing Mormon specific):
1) If you (generic 'you') approach the intent to bash/insult/disrespect another's faith, in violation of 1 Corinthians 13.
2) If you're uninterested in listening to the answers (such as just wanting to prove your side right), then of course you're not going to hear them.
3) If you ask a question which requires more than one sentence to answer, and promptly interrupt/jump-the-gun before rest of the answer is explained, then you'll never get the full answer. And some answers are not simple, but do require study.
4) Somethings require the proper venue/time/place to explain. Obvious example: I would not give some the birds-and-the-bees over an on-line forum.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Case in point: Gawker Media.

It wasn't enough for them to just discuss a celebrity sex tape they got their hands on. No, they had to put two minutes of it on their website. Not only did they just lose the invasion of privacy lawsuit the celebrity filed against them, unless the size of the judgement is modified (it's presently at $115 million) it will force them into bankruptcy. I actually spoke with my branch president earlier about this, as while I do feel sorry for those employees who will lose their jobs because of it I'm having a hard time feeling sorry that the company itself is going to die thanks to one editor's decision.

So yes, the courts did indeed just rule that there's a fine line between discussing and invading.

On tne other hand, its vital that the secret practices of Mormonism be exposed for what they are , so people know what they're signing up for. The Scientologists tried to keep information about their secret rites sacred for years, and failed spectacularly, with the result being a massive decline in the membership and prestige of what was once one of the most powerful cukts in America.

If you Mormons want to avoid that, you need to come clean about everything, now, including how much money the church actually makes through its tithes and church-owned businesses, and how this money is spent.

I myself pray that you and your coreligionists will come to realize that Joseph Smith and his followers were sadly deluded polygamists, who adhered to various ideologies that in some cases, were simply racist, and totally alien to the Gospel of Love taught by our Lord. Forgove me, but as I see it, Mormonism is counterfeit Christianity, built on the lies of a demon impersonating an archangel and the excessive credulity of devout but relatively poorly educated settlers in rural America.

The very fact you react with such hostility towards the mere discussion of things like Patriarchal Blessings is deeply disturbing and is, to be brutally direct, indicative of a cult-like mentality.

If you want Mormonism to endure, and to not go the way of Scientology, open the books, not just the ledgers and journals, but also the service books, and show us everything that goes on in your temples. Even the extremely strict Orthodox Zoroastrians of India (the endogamous caste of Parsees) have demonstrated for filmmakers all of their most sacred rituals, in exact detail, and they don't even allow someone who is not born Zoroastrian into their fire temples.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

1. Moved to new thread due to accidentslly going offtopic

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Since you have no concept of respect and what is sacred you have no idea what you are talking about.

My friend does actually; he leads the Prayer Request unit of our club and single handedly has organized a response to several hundred prayer requests. This I consider to be a sacred ministry; he exercises the sacred offices of priest, prophet and king bestowed by our Lord Jesus Christ on all believers with much more dignity and dedication than most.

If he were Orthodox I would reccommend him to be a sacramental priest (Presbyter), for he is a holy man who can be entrusted with the most sacred duties of Christians.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Ok, answer me these questions:

1. In the preceding fiscal yearthe total revenue of the LDS church and all entities wholly owned or controlled by it?
2. In the same fiscal year, what was the total expenditure of the LDS and all entities owned or controlled by it?
3. How specifically did the Church itself, not counting exodnditure of wholly owned or controlled subsidiaries, spend that money?
4. What does the church do with its surplus?
5. What are the church's long and short term plans in terms of capital expenditure?
6. What compensation, direct or indirect, including the use of office space, business travel, telecommunications, et cetera, do LDS religious leaders receive? (I have read claims they are unpaid, but this is only strictly true if, for example, the current Apostle/President reimburses rhe church for the use of his office, et cetera).
7. How many paid employees do the LDS and its subsidiaries have, and what is their average salary?
8. How many square feet of office space does the LDS and its subsidiaries own, rent or control?
9. How many temples and meeting houses does the LDS own or have under construction, and what is the average cost of each temple and meeting house?
10. What is the average size of the membership of a given stake?
11. How many stakes, and members, on average, does a given temple serve?
12. How many paid employees are reauired for the upkeep and maintenance of a typical meeting house or temple?
13. Have the Mormons stopped peforming proxy baptisms on Holocaust victims and other Orthodox Jews, as per their request?
14. What safeguards have been put in place to ensure that the wishes of members of religious communities, like Judaism, that view Mormon proxy baptisms of their members as sacriligeous are being respected?
15. What is the youngest age at which someone can perform a proxy baptism?
16. How many proxy baptisms are minors allowed to perform per day?
17. Why does the LDS want to know the criminal history of prospective members?
18. What happens to a Mormon who commits a crime?
19. What are the precise criteria for granting and revoking a Temple Reccommend?
20. Can a Mormon whose application for a Temple Reccommend was denied, or whose Temple Reccommend was revoked, appeal the decision, and if so, to who?
21. What policies and safeguards exist to protect laity from abuses by stake presidents?
22. If a Mormon dies before receicing a Temple endowment or memorizing the Freemasonry-style signs, grips and passwords associated with each degree of the Mormon priesthood, what happens to their soul?
23. Do Mormons believe in the physical resurrection of the dead?
24. Is it true a proxy baptism was performed for Jesus Christ? If so, why?
25. What is the purpose and function of prayer circles?
26. What happens if a family sealed together in a celestial marriage later breaks up in a secular divorce?
27. What are the procedures in the Mormon church for church discipline and excommunication?
28. What happens to Mormons who don't pay their tithes?
29. What happens to Mormons who cannot pay their tithes?
30. How are tithes calculated and assessed?
31. Are there any offenses for which someone can be permanently expelled from the Mormon church?
32. What happens to young men and women who do not engage in missionary service for the church?
33. What happens to Mormons who choose to drink caffeine products, liquor, or use tobacco products?
34. What happens to Mormon men who grow facial hair?
35. What happens to Mormons who publically disagree with official church doctrines, or the statements of Church leaders?
36. Please enumerate all of the Temple Ordinances and their functions.
37. Please provide me with the ritual/liturgy/script for each Temple Ordinance.
38. Please explain rhe Mormon believes regarding the seer stones, and whether any objects of this sort are still in the posession of the Church.
39. What precisely does the President do in the Holy of Holies at the Temple in Salt Lake City on the Day of Atonement?
40. Why are Mormons required to wear temple garments at all times? Are they removed during sexual intercourse?
41. Why are Mormons only allowed to buy these garments, or a sewing kit for them, from a church-owned supplier?

Question for you: are you really interested in these answers, or is this a plagiarized list of questions trying to prove Mormonism wrong via the-through-tons-of-spegetti-at-the-wall-and-see-what-happens technique?

If you're uninterested in the answers, then there's no point in me answering (see my point #2 earlier).

 

[Commander Xenophon]

@Jane_Doe and @Ironhold, because Inrealized I had taken us off topic, I moved my questions to another thread.

 

[Jane_Doe]

This is not a plagiarized list. I wrote every single one of those forty one questions just now, within the past ten minutes.

Thank you for not plagiarizing. (I work at a university, so plagiarism is a major sticking point for me).

I tried to cover as much ground as possible; I may think of a few additional questions.

Ok. Speaking practically here, giant lists aren't the most practical way of addressing beliefs, because it does cover so much ground. Is there 1 or 2 questions your are most interested in so I can give them proper treatment? Starting a new thread for them might also be a good idea (LDS posters are not allowed to start threads here, so you'll have to do it).

 

[Wgw]

Thank you for not plagiarizing. (I work at a university, so plagiarism is a major sticking point for me).



Ok. Speaking practically here, giant lists aren't the most practical way of addressing beliefs, because it does cover so much ground. Is there 1 or 2 questions your are most interested in so I can give them proper treatment? Starting a new thread for them might also be a good idea (LDS posters are not allowed to start threads here, so you'll have to do it).

I can't speak for the Commander. but I am most interested in answers to those threads that relate to the liturgy and also to disciplinary rules. excommunications and punishments for members.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I can't speak for the Commander. but I am most interested in answers to those threads that relate to the liturgy and also to disciplinary rules. excommunications and punishments for members.

I can answer those, is it what you guys would like? Want to pick 2 questions in particular?

*Note, Wgw, I am not responding to your other thread, because it is highly disrespectful for you to have posted those videos I am will not validate it. Ironhold also did a good job addressing many of the errors in your text, so there's not much need to duplicate effort. If you want to talk in respectful generics though, I can do that.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Question for you: are you really interested in these answers, or is this a plagiarized list of questions trying to prove Mormonism wrong via the-through-tons-of-spegetti-at-the-wall-and-see-what-happens technique?

If you're uninterested in the answers, then there's no point in me answering (see my point #2 earlier).

I thought some of them were pretty funny.

 

[Ironhold]

The very fact you react with such hostility towards the mere discussion of things like Patriarchal Blessings is deeply disturbing and is, to be brutally direct, indicative of a cult-like mentality.

I've had people threaten my life simply because I'm Mormon. I've also seen others be threatened for the same reason.

The offenders included a list of "Good Christians".

I remember one incident in particular from another website. A woman had left the church after reading hostile material. She was regurgitating some of that material during a discussion, when a few of us recognized one of the authors. The author in question is a known and habitual liar, something that was proven definitively when legal documents began emerging. (He claimed that he was "saved" out of the church and so his wife was forced to divorce him, when in reality he was an adulterer and his wife could take no more, setting off a series of events that saw him getting kicked out.)

When we told her this, she was taken aback. She knew nothing of the man's reputation or his history of lying through his teeth, and so did some soul-searching. She decided that she would go back and examine the man's arguments, this time putting them up to scrutiny instead of simply taking them at face value.

A while later, she got back to us. She declared that after examining the issues, she came to the conclusion that what he had written was so much bupkis. Because of this, she was now investigating the church itself all over again.

In response, an ordained minister wrote an open letter to her husband. In this open letter, he demanded that the husband use "any means necessary" to stop her from becoming a Mormon, declaring that the husband would be a failure as a human being if he did not stop her.

The last message we got from her was a note indicating that both she and her husband were so horrified by what this man of the cloth said that they were both joining the church, even if only to get away from people like that.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Commander; Ok, answer me these questions:

Some of these are rather silly I think;

The church has a team of auditors which watch the books very carefully. If ya can’t trust a prophet to care for the church’s finances then don’t join.

The statistics vary depending on how up dated they are

There are 149 temples running, 8 under construction and 3 more announced We’ll be dedicating the new Provo Temple Sunday Morning. They must cost millions and millions to build.

There are 29,621 congregations I don‘t know how many buildings that is because we double and triple up, across the world there are 3,188 stakes. It cost a lot to heat, cool and maintain let alone build them.

All buildings are paid for before we use them.

There are 85,147 full time missionaries and 30, 404 service or humanitarian missionaries. Plus we have four universities.

*How many square feet of office space does the LDS and its subsidiaries own, rent or control?

I bet no one actually knows, Ya would have to count the church office build and the big gray one next to it, all of the mission offices, all of the welfare offices, Bishop storehouses, all of the seminary and institute offices, Genealogy offices, Church History building, all of Bonneville offices, there’s an insurance company that provides insurances for Church employees, I mean the list could go on and on and on.

How many offices does BYU have?

*What is the average size of the membership of a given stake?

Mm 1500 to 2500 give or take.

*How many paid employees are reauired for the upkeep and maintenance of a typical meeting house or temple?

Each area has a team of maintenance people which rotate from building to building. They do lawns and general maintenance, I have no idea how much they are paid but my friend seems to be just fine financially and he’ll have a retirement. Tomorrow morning I’ll be down at the church for my turn cleaning. The church has a team of elevator people who travel around maintaining elevators and another that fixes heating and cooling systems. Hey and there is security, lots of security.

*What safeguards have been put in place to ensure that the wishes of members of religious communities, like Judaism, that view Mormon proxy baptisms of their members as sacriligeous are being respected?

We have been given a strict rule to do only those names in our direct line. With the new computer system it’s pretty easy to tell whose doing what and someone can have their temple recommend pulled if they break the rules.

* Why does the LDS want to know the criminal history of prospective members?

So they can repent.

*What happens to a Mormon who commits a crime?

Ya mean if they want to repent?

Depending on the seriousness they have to confess to the Bishop and take their punishment dish out by a court of law.

If there is no repentance they can be excommunicated until they feel humble enough to repent.

Excommunication is looked at as away to have a new start, we repent and are re-baptized, all sin is washed away.

*If a Mormon dies before receicing a Temple endowment ….what happens to their soul?

I have never memorized the temple endowment and I’m not worried about my soul. I’m dyslexic, can’t put one word in front of another one. The Lord does not judge you by your power to memorize but by the love of Christ in your heart. Though I have faith to move mountains I am nothing without charity.

What do you think will happened to those who don’t accept your brand of Christianity? Are you heating up hell fire for them?

*Do Mormons believe in the physical resurrection of the dead?

Yes

*Is it true a proxy baptism was performed for Jesus Christ? If so, why?

No, once was enough

*What happens to Mormons who don't pay their tithes?
What happens to Mormons who cannot pay their tithes?

Those who don’t can not receive a temple recommend nor will they receive a calling like a Bishop. Generally no one knows except the Bishop, who will encourage them to try so the windows of heaven can open. They can teach classes and participate in many other ways.

Can not is different. It’s based on 10% of increases, if you’re out of work and there is no money coming in then no tithing is expected. The bishop will send you to the Bishops warehouse and food will be provided. They might help with your light bill or doctor bills. They may ask you to go down to the storehouse and do some work, they will help you look for a new job or get some training.

*Are there any offenses for which someone can be permanently expelled from the Mormon church?

I can’t think of anything except murder with a death or life sentence, a proxy Baptism can be done after they die. To be a son of perdition and sin against the Holy Ghost takes a lot of work.

There was that guy who moved from city to city getting baptized over and over again so he could qualify for welfare, I think they put an end to that.

*What happens to young men and women who do not engage in missionary service for the church?

I have three sons, only one went and he’s the one which is less active now.

*What happens to Mormons who choose to drink caffeine products, liquor, or use tobacco products?

Well my coke zero is almost gone now, maybe I should go to bed.

We pray for them.

*What happens to Mormon men who grow facial hair?

We burn them at the stake.

*What happens to Mormons who publically disagree with official church doctrines, or the statements of Church leaders?

Well any organization has a right to get rid of members who can’t abide by the rules and bylaws. If they are trying to change the doctrines of the Church we Ex them. Then we pray for them.

*Please explain rhe Mormon believes regarding the seer stones, and whether any objects of this sort are still in the posession of the Church.

Yes the Church has, at least they think they do, Joseph seer stone. It’s a rock an egg shaped brown rock. Won’t do you a bit of good to have it cause you’re not a prophet and you lack faith.

* What precisely does the President do in the Holy of Holies at the Temple in Salt Lake City on the Day of Atonement?

I have know idea, what do you think they do?