Patching the Israel-flaw in Covenant Theology

ralliann

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I'd recommend T.E McComiskey's book: "The Covenants of Promise". That book basically shaped my understanding of the covenants - until then I didn't have any idea how the multiple covenants related to the one Covenant of Grace.

The one Promise/Covenant signifies EVERYTHING granted to us, all possible blessings available to us in this life and the next. THAT is the (Abrahamic) inheritance but it can be summarized as God/Christ Himself because He Himself is the primary blessing given to us AND the Provider of all concomitant blessings.

Those blessing are to be:
(1) Unconditionally enjoyed in the next world.
(2) Largely conditioned upon obedience, in this life.

Christ owns everything, for example the land of Canaan, and hence could proffer it to Israel as one of His promises/covenants - conditional upon obedience. There is also a heavenly Canaan of the next life, which is the more permanent Promised Land.

Conditioned upon obedience doesn't necessarily mean Israel had to obey the law perfectly. Basically God offered Canaan to them because during revivals He is especially bountiful - the Mosaic era and the apostolic era where history's two greatest revivals. Israel didn't have to obey the law perfectly - rather just enough to avoid angering Him so much as to throw them out of the land. Obedience is easier in revival due to the outpourings, hence God doesn't much tolerate disobedience. That's why it was easy to get stoned in those days. Same reason why Ananias and Saphira got struck dead. It's all the same.

Anyway there was an earthly priesthood, but it was a SHADOW (not really a foreshadow) of the spiritual priesthood. Both were in effect at the same time. Just as both earthly circumcision and spiritual circumcision were in effect at the same time.

Not sure if this helps.
No it doesn't help. The priesthood was an inheritance. Which heirs did not inherit with Israel. That is the elephant in the room. Israelites were not "anointed ones". The highpriest was an anointed one (a Christ), The king an anointed one (a Christ) Prophets were anointed ones (Christs)

The Sinai covenant gave no king, but priests.
Mal 2:7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

John a levite

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Law from the mouth (oral law) was from the high priest with his urim and Thummim.
Deut 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
 
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ralliann

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Personally I've never been clear on what Hebrews meant by that exactly.
I think it means what Paul spoke of concerning the two covenants.
The Christ is an anointed one. The first covenant of his natural seed was the inheritance of Levi....for a shadow, the one seed among the many. Sinai. The book of Hebrews uses the tabernacle as an example of the two covenants. Into the first went all the priests, but into the second the high priest (the holy anointed one) only. The Israelite was a stranger in Gods household. Think of Ephesians 2 as well here....

I also think each of these two covenants are INHERITANCES from the Abrahamic
covenants Gen 15 and Gen 17. They are two portions of all the inheritance promised Abrahams heirs. Israel being called Gods firstborn had a double portion. One earthly worldly, the other heavenly
 
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JAL

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No it doesn't help. The priesthood was an inheritance. Which heirs did not inherit with Israel. That is the elephant in the room. Israelites were not "anointed ones". The highpriest was an anointed one (a Christ), The king an anointed one (a Christ) Prophets were anointed ones (Christs)

The Sinai covenant gave no king, but priests.
Mal 2:7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

John a levite

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Law from the mouth (oral law) was from the high priest with his urim and Thummim.
Deut 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Connect the dots for me here. Are you making an objection to my point of view? What exactly is it?

My position is simple. The Voice governed saints in both testaments and they were to obey it regardless whether it was commanding a sacrifice, or circumcision, or eucharist, or some priestly ceremony. In other words, they were to following the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Nothing has changed.

Sorry I'm a bit slow figuring out what you feel is missing from this arrangement.

If you're asking whether Christ functioned as High Priest in the OT, absolutely He did. The Covenant of Grace is retroactive - hence NT saints don't get a better cross, or a better Christ/Priest, than OT saints. The Levitical high priest wasn't really a foreshadow of our High Priest (Christ) but rather a SHADOW of Him. The high priest on earth was a shadow of our High Priest in heaven. Both ministries existed simultaneously. Maybe that's where you and I are diverging.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You seem to have read little about the law. While in Babylon, they still were able to know who was allowed to offer the sacrifices. They offered the sacrifices. Today, not only is the law of Moses still no longer in effect, they couldn't obey it if they wanted to. It requires high priests who are sons of Aaron and sons of Levi who are allowed to handle the priestly duties.

The old law is impossible to obey today.

It is quite obvious you know nothing regarding Torah. ONLY those laws regarding the temple can not be kept...why?...because there is NO Temple. Sacrifices were NOT done in Babylon. The synagogue developed because of the Babylonian captivity as it is now, after the 2nd Temple was destroyed.

I guess you never heard of the Cohen modal haplotype? BTW genius, "Thou shalt not murder" is part of the law...so yes, it can still be kept.
 
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Al Touthentop

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It is quite obvious you know nothing regarding Torah. ONLY those laws regarding the temple can not be kept...why?...because there is NO Temple.

The law requires that specific priests perform the sacrifices. Only those priests can perform sacrifices and other Levites handle the various utensils and offer incense etc.

Because there is no knowledge of who is a Levite today, The law cannot be obeyed which provides atonement or remission. Any Jew who sins, has no means of remission under the law of Moses. Even were the temple to be rebuilt, it could not be staffed by Levites.

The ONLY way to achieve remission is through Christ. The law is dead, nailed to the cross, as Paul wrote.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The law requires that specific priests perform the sacrifices. Only those priests can perform sacrifices and other Levites handle the various utensils and offer incense etc.

Because there is no knowledge of who is a Levite today, The law cannot be obeyed which provides atonement or remission. Any Jew who sins, has no means of remission under the law of Moses. Even were the temple to be rebuilt, it could not be staffed by Levites.

The ONLY way to achieve remission is through Christ. The law is dead, nailed to the cross, as Paul wrote.

You were wrong rearding Babylon. You were wrong regarding Torah. You are wrong again. There ARE Cohanim ready to resume duties IF the Temple were to be rebuilt. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sanhedrin Appoints High Priest in Preparation for Third Temple

Yeshua redeemed us from the curse of the Law...sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death...we are free from the curse of the Law, which is death (Gal 3:13). Not that we can be disobedient to Him, but that we would have grace & mercy, through repentance, whenever we fall short of obeying God’s Law.
 
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Al Touthentop

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You were wrong rearding Babylon. You were wrong regarding Torah. You are wrong again. There ARE Cohanim ready to resume duties IF the Temple were to be rebuilt. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sanhedrin Appoints High Priest in Preparation for Third Temple

Yeshua redeemed us from the curse of the Law...sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death...we are free from the curse of the Law, which is death (Gal 3:13). Not that we can be disobedient to Him, but that we would have grace & mercy, through repentance, whenever we fall short of obeying God’s Law.


Jesus IS the third temple.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Only if he was talking about his second coming. He wasn't. He was prophesying about the destruction of Jerusalem. That's a time passage. God's time passages must be respected. The near demonstrative pronoun there is specific (αὕτη). Had he wanted to indicate a time long in the future he wouldn't have said it that way.

Bible study requires us to submit to the word. He says "until ALL these things have happened." Because some of those things seem to have a meaning we're certain of (Christ's second comng!) and we can't reconcile this because, "I'm certain that hasn't happened yet," then some other possibility has to be available to us which reconciles with God's infallible word.

The most logical one, one that doesn't make Christ a liar, is that all those things took place and he wasn't talking about his second coming. Even though the language he used seems to be talking about the Judgement Day, it must not be. One plausible explanation is that he is talking about his coming or his spiritual presence in judgement of Jerusalem, not of the whole world. They were to recognize that the destruction of Israel was by his hand. His wrath would be poured out on those who after 40 years still refused to submit to God.

In order for the old Covenant to be wiped out completely, the temple had to be destroyed and the sacrifices had to be stopped. Jesus had already caused them to "cease" in the middle of the 70th week through his sacrifice becoming the new spiritual temple rebuilt when he was resurrected (See John 2:18-23). The temple sacrifices no longer provided atonement the day Jesus declared "it is finished." He had already given them plenty of time to be baptized before that point and would even continue giving them that opportunity for another 37 years or so.

Time was up for the Old Covenant.

The old covenant was wiped out at the cross, not AD70. The new covenant was fully introduced in His blood. The removing of the outward apparatus was totally secondary and a result of the new covenant being activated.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You were wrong rearding Babylon. You were wrong regarding Torah. You are wrong again. There ARE Cohanim ready to resume duties IF the Temple were to be rebuilt. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sanhedrin Appoints High Priest in Preparation for Third Temple

Yeshua redeemed us from the curse of the Law...sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death...we are free from the curse of the Law, which is death (Gal 3:13). Not that we can be disobedient to Him, but that we would have grace & mercy, through repentance, whenever we fall short of obeying God’s Law.


What are you talking about? They are apostate Christ-rejecters. They are blind and deaf. They are of their father the devil. You need to untangle yourself from the old covenant. It was destroyed long ago. It will never be restarted. PTL.

Please read what the NT says:

Hebrews 7:11-12 tells us, If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

The priesthood has been changed; and having been changed there was a change triggered in the law (“there is made of necessity a change also of the law”). Whilst the written law is still active, the whole old covenant ceremonial system was superseded by a new better covenant.

The Greek word for “changed” here is metatithemi which actually means transferred or exchanged. This shows that old temporal imperfect priesthood has been exchanged for the new perfect eternal priesthood in Christ. The deficient shadow and type has been replaced by Israel’s eternal high priest the Messiah and will never again be changed, undone or rivalled by a parallel priesthood. It is an eternal transfer of influence. Christ will not (or cannot) share this office with another, neither can He hand the baton over to others. He holds it firm and alone as of right and by way of an everlasting oath. Those that purport to steal this sacred title enter into the dangerous arena of heresy.

The problem with the Old Testament priestly administration was: it was inadequate. It involved men who by nature were prone to sin and who therefore fell short of what God required of them. Time after time, the high priest failed in God’s requirements through sin or compromise and consequently God judged the whole nation. Corruption eventually took a hold of the office and brought it into complete disrepute. This opened the door to idol worship and apostasy. What is more, with the blight of sin in man came death. This meant the office was continually passed from one to another.

Hebrews 7:15 clearly tells us of this new covenant period: “there ariseth another priest” – “even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec” (Hebrews 6:20). This priest was an eternal priest ministering on behalf of the people of God.

Whilst there were many priests in the nation of Israel under the old covenant there was only ever one high priest at any one time. The office was passed on upon death from one high priest to another. Hebrews 7:21-24 says, speaking of Christ, “Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.”

The word interpreted “unchangeable” here is very significant. It comes from the Greek word aparabatos, which simply means non-transferable. It is a legal word. For example, it relates to a judge laying down a decision that is unalterable and non-transferable. It also describes something which belongs to one person and cannot be transferred to anyone else. This tells us, no one else can hold the Melchizedek priesthood. Christ continues alone in this role, having an unchangeable non-transferable priestly office. Unlike the old covenant priesthood, Christ has no successors in this office. This priesthood cannot pass from one to another, it is not transmissible. No other can appropriate this title or share in the function of the position, Christ alone holds that sacred high priestly office. Christ is the only real and perfect High Priest. He is the ultimate and final high priest of the redeemed of God.

Hebrews 7:16 tells us that Christ “is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.”

The whole context here is the removal and the replacement of the old covenant priesthood, the writer of the Hebrews presents Christ as heavens eternal replacement. What is more, we can see that this priesthood cannot pass from one to another, it is not transferrable. No other can appropriate this title or share in the function of the position, Christ alone holds that sacred high priestly office. Christ is the only real and perfect high priest today. He is the ultimate and final High Priest of the redeemed of God.

Hebrews 7:26-28 confirms this, telling us that Christ “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”

The Levitical priesthood had to be replaced because it was inadequate and temporal. The priests themselves were blighted with sin, therefore they died. The old covenant priesthood was simply a weak figure of the eternal priesthood that was to come. Hebrews 7 confirms: those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s (v 27) and they were not suffered to continue by reason of death(v 23).

Christ’s “perfect” priesthood cannot be compared to the faulty old covenant priesthood with all its obvious limitations. It is final, eternal and unchanging. There is no end to the Lord’s hold on this office. When Christ ascended to the right hand of majesty on high He did so as man’s final perfect high priest. He was the substance and fulfilment of the Old Testament high priestly order who served as the temporal shadow of the coming Messiah. He met every requirement demanded of God to reconcile the sinner unto God.

Hebrews 8:3-8: “For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law … But now hath He [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry (than the priests that made imperfect sacrifices), by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

The removal of the faulty old covenant is here connected to the replacement of the old covenant priesthood. The two are inextricably tied together. The one true eternal high priest has perfected the last sacrifice for sin, and now sits in heaven interceding for His elect. Thus He fulfils the two-fold duty of the priest (making atonement for sin, and interceding on the people’s behalf).

Hebrews 10:19-21 says, Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God.”

The old imperfect sacrifices made by the representative priests in the Old Covenant were superseded at the cross by the one final satisfactory sacrifice by the one true eternal priest – the Lord Jesus Christ.

The book of Hebrews destroys any notion of the restoration of the old covenant priests. It is quite inconceivable that this defunct priesthood would one day be restored to compete with Christ in a future temple. Hebrews 7:19 tells us: “the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.” Christ owns the only priestly office that God recognises for all eternity. Hebrews 7:22 confirms, “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.” For he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises (Hebrews 8:6).

We have entered into a new divine arrangement that supersedes the shadow, type and figure. Man has one true heavenly high priest and requires none other. For our Premillennial brethren to expect others is a mistake and underlines the dangers of the Premillennial teaching. It is totally wrong to imagine that the new covenant would be replaced by the old in the future. This will never (or can never) happen.
 
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Al Touthentop

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The old covenant was wiped out at the cross, not AD70.

I said that actually. The reason to even bring up AD70 was just to point out that there's not even a way to obey the law properly today even if one wanted to.

The new covenant was fully introduced in His blood. The removing of the outward apparatus was totally secondary and a result of the new covenant being activated.

Agree.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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What are you talking about?.

IF you would read the thread instead of just reacting at it, you would know. I am not debating regarding anything you posted. I am saying the other poster was wrong regarding to what they said regarding Babylon and Jews keeping Torah. SMH
 
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Al Touthentop

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Deflect much?

That's not a deflection. The old covenant was replaced. The rebuilding of a physical temple will have no spiritual effect. The rebuilding of the temple prophecies were pointing at Jesus.

John 2:18-21
So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

When will you believe it?

Romans 8:7-13
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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That's not a deflection. The old covenant was replaced. The rebuilding of a physical temple will have no spiritual effect.

I am not discussing that with you. We were discussing Jews and the keeping of Torah while in Babylon after the 1st Temple was destroyed. Tthat is where the synagogue developed. We now have the same thing after the 2nd Temple was destroyed. There ARE Cohanim ready to resume duties IF the Temple were to be rebuilt. You have not replied to these points so I assume you agree.
 
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ralliann

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You were wrong rearding Babylon. You were wrong regarding Torah. You are wrong again. There ARE Cohanim ready to resume duties IF the Temple were to be rebuilt. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sanhedrin Appoints High Priest in Preparation for Third Temple

Yeshua redeemed us from the curse of the Law...sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death...we are free from the curse of the Law, which is death (Gal 3:13). Not that we can be disobedient to Him, but that we would have grace & mercy, through repentance, whenever we fall short of obeying God’s Law.
There was a correction to that article, with an apology for it's inaccuracy as follows.
Begin quote
"8/30 CORRECTION: While the Nascent Sanhedrin recommended Rabbi Baruch Kahane as the Kohen Gadol, it did not officially appoint him as he made it clear he would be unwilling to accept such an appointment at this time. The Sanhedrin recommended him for the position of “Rosh Kohanim” (head of the priests), a role with Biblical precedent which is often but not always synonymous with that of the High Priest. The court recognized and blessed Rabbi Kahane’s invaluable efforts in the past to advance the issue of reinstating the Temple Service, which include participating in reenactments and establishing a school for educating kohanim.
Breaking Israel News is an enthusiastic advocate of efforts to reinstate the Jewish Temple and in no way intends to bring negative attention to these efforts. We put a great deal of effort into ensuring our articles are accurate. Nonetheless, misunderstandings do occur and we apologize for any potential discord caused by this article."
End quote
So the headline was inaccurate. I do not know what that means for the readiness presented in the article.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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There was a correction to that article, with an apology for it's inaccuracy as follows.
Begin quote
"8/30 CORRECTION: While the Nascent Sanhedrin recommended Rabbi Baruch Kahane as the Kohen Gadol, it did not officially appoint him as he made it clear he would be unwilling to accept such an appointment at this time. The Sanhedrin recommended him for the position of “Rosh Kohanim” (head of the priests), a role with Biblical precedent which is often but not always synonymous with that of the High Priest. The court recognized and blessed Rabbi Kahane’s invaluable efforts in the past to advance the issue of reinstating the Temple Service, which include participating in reenactments and establishing a school for educating kohanim.
Breaking Israel News is an enthusiastic advocate of efforts to reinstate the Jewish Temple and in no way intends to bring negative attention to these efforts. We put a great deal of effort into ensuring our articles are accurate. Nonetheless, misunderstandings do occur and we apologize for any potential discord caused by this article."
End quote
So the headline was inaccurate. I do not know what that means for the readiness presented in the article.

Yes I saw that. There are Kohanim ready and some also in training for Temple service at the present time.

School to Train Levite Priests for Third Temple Service to Open in Jerusalem
 
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ralliann

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Yes I saw that. There are Kohanim ready and some also in training for Temple service at the present time.

School to Train Levite Priests for Third Temple Service to Open in Jerusalem
This article was written before the other article. So (it seems to me) the problem remains, unless someone is willing the take the role of high priest they will not be ready. I personally do not think this will go well with rabbinic Judaism. The installing of the priesthood is a threat against their authority in oral Torah. They gained power over Judaism after the temple ministry was displaced. Rome giving them a new Sanhedrin in Yavneh has been their stronghold since 70 ad.
Btw hope your Christmas was merry.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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This article was written before the other article. So (it seems to me) the problem remains, unless someone is willing the take the role of high priest they will not be ready. I personally do not think this will go well with rabbinic Judaism. The installing of the priesthood is a threat against their authority in oral Torah. They gained power over Judaism after the temple ministry was displaced. Rome giving them a new Sanhedrin in Yavneh has been their stronghold since 70 ad.
Btw hope your Christmas was merry.

Not sure why you think this is a problem. It is not like a Kohen Gadol is needed immediately. The Temple Priests are still being selected and being trained at the present. It is said that either the Sanhedrin, the King or the Moshiakh Himself will appoint the Kohen Gadol. You see how this might get very interesting regarding Yeshua. :)

Hundreds gather in Jerusalem to reenact Passover Temple celebration
 
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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
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The Levitical high priest wasn't really a foreshadow of our High Priest (Christ) but rather a SHADOW of Him. The high priest on earth was a shadow of our High Priest in heaven. Both ministries existed simultaneously.
Exactly! Hebrews 8:5 says just that - the Holy of Holies in the temple was a copy - not a foreshadow (so it came AFTER what always was):

Hebrews 8:5 ~ The place where they serve is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”a
 
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