Pastors that abuse their authority.

[discernomatic]

Simple curiosity: if you do get labeled a cult, what happens then?Fines, jail, the stock, no more pizza nights?

JR

No, but people will avoid you and not come to the meetings. Devout Catholics at least, will avoid such people like the plague. I know one Pentecostal who cannot send his children to the Catholic summer camp - they usually accept everybody, even the local Chinese and Muslims. They know that he will try to witness and send his children to witness too and don't want that happening. His group did get permission for a church - they bought property in the next town and will start building soon. But because of the aggressiveness of witnessing (Pentecostal exclusivity may play a role - the "we are right and you are not" attitude) they still are not usually taken seriously, even though affiliated.

Jehovah's Witnesses do have groups here, one exists in my town. They meet in a house, I know where. But those that join are not usually devout Catholics integrated into the local parish, they are people without connections who moved to the area, or are those having personal problems, or those who never really listened to or believed in what they were taught in church.

The JWs ring doorbells a lot, and get turned away most of the time. They are usually not taken seriously.

Any non-affiliated religious group would be put in the same category.

The local (downtown Milano) Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists are fairly well accepted as legitimate, at least in public at ecumenical gatherings. In private Catholic catechism that I have been to though, they are not painted in a good light, the attitude was negative.

 

[brother daniel]

No, but people will avoid you and not come to the meetings. Devout Catholics at least, will avoid such people like the plague. I know one Pentecostal who cannot send his children to the Catholic summer camp - they usually accept everybody, even the local Chinese and Muslims. They know that he will try to witness and send his children to witness too and don't want that happening. His group did get permission for a church - they bought property in the next town and will start building soon. But because of the aggressiveness of witnessing (Pentecostal exclusivity may play a role - the "we are right and you are not" attitude) they still are not usually taken seriously, even though affiliated.

Jehovah's Witnesses do have groups here, one exists in my town. They meet in a house, I know where. But those that join are not usually devout Catholics integrated into the local parish, they are people without connections who moved to the area, or are those having personal problems, or those who never really listened to or believed in what they were taught in church.

The JWs ring doorbells a lot, and get turned away most of the time. They are usually not taken seriously.

Any non-affiliated religious group would be put in the same category.

The local (downtown Milano) Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists are fairly well accepted as legitimate, at least in public at ecumenical gatherings. In private Catholic catechism that I have been to though, they are not painted in a good light, the attitude was negative.

Not many will want to walk fulltime with Jesus, but the one that do are very speciel.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Romanseight2005]

Wow! I am sure that I would be out of there very quickly. Even Jesus washed His disciples feet. The one with the most authority, should be the most humble servant. One thing that I look for immediately, when I first attend a church, is does the pastor exude arrogance, or does his humility show in his countenence. I am not talking about false humility, but if there is extreme pride it is usually evident.

 

[livingword26]

This person was not a Pastor. Pastors are ordained by God, and there was no Godliness in this mans teaching, no humility, no love of God. This person was ordained by Satan. He has fallen victim to his pride and his own desires for power and Glory. We can only hope that the rest of his followers are lead by the Holy Spirit to come to the understanding that you did, we should even hope that his "pastor" himself, comes to know the living God.

2Pe 2:1-2
(1) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
(2) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.


Act 20:28-30
(28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
(30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

LOL. Ordained by Satan. Like Bush, elected by Satan

 

[cubanito]

I think this is bogus. I checked off 2 things and it said I should probably leave.

I went back and checked off just one to see what it said and it said I'd better be careful, and that I should read more of their stuff.

Talk about controlling.

I agree, the cultwatch test is overly sensitive. Some of the questions are just poor, with double negatives or about a book "Church Quake" I've never even heard of with just yes/no responses.

JR

 

[cubanito]

Our PCA Church government is that of a pyramid without the capstone. Every elder has an equal vote, and the treasury has continual PUBLIC oversight from non-church member accountants. It is quite common for an ordinary member like me to tell the pastor where he's wrong, and (time constraints allowing) be received with couresy and open dialogue. Almost all meetings by the elders or deacons is open to any Church member (the exception is only when discussing some matter of personal sin/chrurch discipline.

Those pastors that have tried to become controling have been shown the door y the elders.

JR

 

[Rick Otto]

 

[brother daniel]

Our PCA Church government is that of a pyramid without the capstone. Every elder has an equal vote, and the treasury has continual PUBLIC oversight from non-church member accountants. It is quite common for an ordinary member like me to tell the pastor where he's wrong, and (time constraints allowing) be received with couresy and open dialogue. Almost all meetings by the elders or deacons is open to any Church member (the exception is only when discussing some matter of personal sin/chrurch discipline.

Those pastors that have tried to become controling have been shown the door y the elders.

JR

Is your group in Cuba?

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[PlainDeanna]

I have been to alot of churches and found these things going on in these churches, so finally my husband and I stopped going to them, then when a new church came to town we would visit them too but same thing.
I know no one is perfect, but I know the bible tells us the pastors, preachers, bishops, ect. are suppose to be a good example to us, and be more Godly than they are (at least trying to be). But alot of them are not even Godly ones now, they just want to be over the church and let the church support them. I like the thing that some churches believe not paying someone to Pastor their church, the Pastor has to work at a job or his own business to support himself. Then their more apt to be right with God, not always but more than the ones who are supported.
I lean more towards the Anabaptist beliefs now (from what I've read) but theres no meetings in this area or any where near, so I try to get what I can off line to study. I have been wearing modest dresses for many years, but just started wearing a headcovering about 6 or 7 months ago. I know now what the scriptures say about not forsaken assembling together with other believers. It is lonely, if we could find a place where other like believers are to buy a place we would move there. We live in Arizona, the closes to us are Mennonites and their 4 or 5 hours away. With the gas prices thats to far to drive and it's in Phoenix, theres nothing there for us. We just have to keep praying for the Lord to help us find a place around other like believers. God Bless You all!

 

[Gareth]

I remember a congregation that insisted all the men wore white shirts. Anyone who came to give a talk from somewhere else and were not wearing a white shirt had to change from a stock that was kept in a room. Scary to think isn't it. What may start off with good intentions descends into chaos. How can God's Spirit flow when there is disorder and not peace within the congregation?

 

[ffinder]

I remember a congregation's leader that insisted that air conditioners in the church building run at full power so that ppl would feel so cold that they wear a lot of clothes to keep warm thus covered from head to toe!

 

[ffinder]

Almost all meetings by the elders or deacons is open to any Church member (the exception is only when discussing some matter of personal sin/chrurch discipline.

Hmmmm in my Bible personal sin/chrurch discipline was done openly to ALL Church members

1Co 5:1 On the whole it is reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even named among the nations, so as one to have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, so that he who has done this deed may be taken from your midst.

Paul was writing to all the Church wasn't he?
1Co 1:2 to the church of God which is in Corinth

FF.

 

[ffinder]

I like the thing that some churches believe not paying someone to Pastor their church, the Pastor has to work at a job or his own business to support himself.

OK like that too but i attended a services that their pastor received no salary and had to work yet he was one of the most controlling pastors I've seen, his members were scared of him. The only good thing is that there is absolutely no pressure to give money and that's all.

 

[HOPEOF9]

Pastors that abuse their authority.

That's the reason that about 90 believers left our church more than a year ago, some of them members for more than 12 years.

Following are the main points of abuse:

1 - Worship control
We were commanded by the pastor to worship the way he likes (shouting, screaming, dancing) and because most of the time we failed to do so
we were condemned as not praising God as loudly as He deserves.

2 - Submission to pastor
Submission in everything he says and anyone questioning his actions was considered a rebel and under a curse (1Sa 15:23) Many times the
pastor said if you love me (the pastor) obey my commandments. For more than 6 months he was doing Bible studies on submission to the pastor.

3 - Church authority structure
The old pyramid structure but worse than that no elders! The pastor in all of his decisions he hears from God, no need to consult others.

4 - Abuse of authority
How about expelling some workers from ministry suddenly without telling them why or
assigning a wife in a ministry without telling anything to her husband

5 - Pastor is servant
He said the workers are in the church to serve the pastor. He emphasized that everything must be ready when he comes to preach, he only
takes the microphone. Once he rebuked the workers for not moving a fallen banner, he went and moved it to our shame. You could only get
advice from him if you make an appointment at specific hours of the day. Once we had a case with demon possession but we couldn't call the
pastor cause it was outside his specific hours so we brought someone else from a different church.

6 - Finances
No accountability was given of where the money goes or what are their wages. On one occasion a large piece of land was sold and until today
we do not know what happened to the money.

7 - Money preaching
No, they never begged us to give but EVERY Sunday morning before the main sermon a mini sermon was preached by different workers on giving to
God.

8 - Vision of pastor
No one else had the freedom to have a different vision. He often said "there can be no 2 visions in this church". All workers and members main ministry was to fulfill the pastor's vision.

9 - Church show biz
Oh how many were sacrificed on the altar of church show! Once the show started you had to be there on time better yet half hour earlier
looking perfect with the right suit behaving right to the end of the show. One mistake and you got heavily rebuked. The show was more
important than the hearts of believers. Like a young musician not wearing the right tie he was heavily rebuked, he got really hurt.

10 - Traditions of man
Point 9 had plenty of rules and regulations that disobeying them you got whipped but also signing to become a member/tither for life was a
rule to new members. Lists were taken for members not attending services and also lists of who doesn't tithe who tithes and how much he
gives. You see we were accountable to him about our tithes/offerings but he was not accountable to us as to what he did with our tithes/offerings.

11 - Sensitivity to unbelievers
You try to bring your friend to church to get saved. If he doesn't go away at the hysterical worship and screaming from the pastor and some
others he will when money preaching starts. Usually they say "did you bring me here to get my money to them ?"

12 - Darkness underestimated
Satan has no power or authority today! claiming Col 2:15 "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly,
triumphing over them in it." The original greek says 'striped naked' for 'spoiled' so the principalities and powers were striped naked from
their power and position (principality) and now they are naked that is they have no power or position (principality).

13 - Church name above Jesus name
Someone said to him "you must put Jesus is Lord above the name of the church outside the building". No he said. And how about the many
T-shirts printed with the name of the church in front and Jesus name behind.

14 - Curses
When we left three of us our names were given from the pulpit with warnings no one to speak to us along with the following scripture
Pro 24:21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:For their calamity shall rise
suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both? He said he is not the one cursing us but the Bible.




Maybe some of you have experienced abuse from leaders in other points than the above.

I believe that all of the above points are unscriptural therefore we could not continue in this kind of a church that might turn to a cult. He would not listen to anybody even leaders from other churches. No change to this day. What i'm concerned with is the believers that go there and they suffer but they don't go away because of fear.

I'm thinking of distributing facts about spiritual abuse among the churches
(without mentioning names) so that believers will wake up shake off the fear and find Christ centered churches.

Thanks in advance for hearing my story,
FF.

I'm a pastor's wife, and I'm so very sorry that you have gone through such bad experiences in the name of Jesus.

Blessings

 

[Elshevia]

This is all very sad and hurtful to all membes, I left a church where the Pasters wife was in control, I has a meeting with him to discuss some things that were on my mind she came with him and controlled the meeting, telling him you should not have done that, oh that was terrible to say that, oh dear no don't say you said that. a week later that poor man was disagnosed with terminal cancer, did I feel bad, I felt terrible, a new pastor was sent a lovely man, and his resception was a farse, thats the kindess thing I can say about it, He left after 6, Months and his wife is still suffering from the effects,
of there resception to-day. So what do you do, try again in another Church, thats what I did. Elshevia.

 

[mont974x4]

There is a reason, IMO, that we are all charged to study for ourselves and to test the spirits.

Also, just because a man has a title doesn't mean he is unaccountable....even if he thinks so.

There have been two cases where I went to the pastor/church leadership with concerns and spent many hours (over a course of days and weeks) praying, studying, and seeking godly resolutions only to be driven from the churches in question.

The first was a non-denom church. It fell pretty hard for the health/wealth prosperity gospel and was guilty of many of the things mentioned in the OP of this thread. We went to the pastor with prayer and Scripture and were removed from service/leadership. We went again and the pastor had assigned people to sit by us and copy our notes during the sermons. These people then reported to him what we wrote and we were confronted for it. We refused to "repent" and ended up being met at the door one Sunday morning by bouncers who told us to never come back.

That was many years ago.




The second involved a small SBC church. The elders decided to make it a "peacemaker" church and presented a motion to require all members and attendees who served to sign an informed consent. The form required that we waive many rights under the Constitution and Bill of Rights and made the elders as rulers over every aspect of our life. Peacemakers is a ministry created by lawyers, the intent is good but the pratice is horribly legalistic. Before the membership voted I was trying to get answers to some basic questions. I started with the pointing out that the Scriptures they sited didn't fit and what they were requiring was unbiblical. They wouldn't hear it. Then I asked, "What happens if this passes and I refuse to sign it." I asked that of all 3 of the elders, seperately, many times and they refused to answer. This went on for a few days and finally I cornered one of them and made him answer me. I was told I had to resign.

 

[pastortimothy]

Spiritual abuse, and it's many permutations, has been a problem throughout the history of the church. And while abuse can happen in any church, in any setting, the most prolific and common type of abuse, today, is chiefly the brand of abuse that has, in one way or another, stemmed from the megachurch movements of the last couple of decades. Regardless of the flavor of the oppression, spiritual abuse always leaves the victim wounded and lost.

At the core of these churches is a propensity to honor the unwritten rule of silence; silence in the congregatioin; silence at prayer meetings; silence during events and retreats. It is not allowed to be contrary. Disagreement, even if respectfully submitted, will many times result in the brand of Jezebel or rebel.

"Transperancy" and "authenticity" are preached yet neither concept is truly modeled by leadership. A disproportionate amount of attention is placed on voluntary submission to organizational authority structures. You can be sure you will sign a covenant of some kind just to cement it in your psyche for good measure.

Your giftings and talents are, ultimately, at the discretion of and doled out by leadership. Oh, and look, your gifts just happen to fill an open position in the toddler ministry! Praise God!

Be prepared to seek out the "hidden sin" in your life because you are experiencing the normal everyday financial, social and marital stresses of being human; or perhaps it is actually because you are not tithing enough. Yeah, that's it.

Better not make any major financial decisions without the approval of church leadership. After all, you could be withholding a blessing for the church by being selfish.

You probably shouldn't engage in a personal ministry, either, without the approval and annointing of church leadership. I mean, if the leadership didn't say you were anointed to minister to others outside of the church, well then I guess God says the same thing, right?

Oh, and finally, your worth to God, as a Christian, is based on your performance and how well you can blindly follow the orders of other imperfect people because disobeying leadership is the same as disobeying God.

These are just some of the practices that occur in abusive church systems.

I invite you to check out a christian forums blog entry I posted sometime ago. It is relevant to the topic. I haven't posted enough times to put a link here, but it is titled "God Is the Boss of Me" under my blogs page.

Tongue in cheek aside, spiritual abuse is pervasive and rampant in church culture today. It is a real problem...with real casualties. The bottom line is that, no matter what kind of abuse, the believer is left feeling as though they don't measure up. Going to church used to bring them joy; now it just brings them levels of control and causes performance anxiety. I am sure there are many here, in this forum, who home church because of it. People who presume to control others in this way need to be brought to repentance. On this topic, I am irrevocably passionate.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, -1 Timothy 2:5

Check it out...one God...one mediator...one Christ Jesus.

Jesus said that if I know him, then I know His father. He didn't say that if I know the pastor, then I know His father...period. Think about it.

 

[EmilyF]

I am trying to heal now from spiritual abuse at the hands of leaders that occurred up until five years ago. As of now, I am not leaving this church. There are many things that I love about it but right now I can not properly function in it. Just leaving is not so easy.
I was abused when I was new. It started almost immediately after accepting Christ. I was in a discipling relationship for 2 years and we met weekly. We saw each other at least two other times a week at other church things. There was never one of our regular meetings where my "sin" was not the main topic. So over the course of two years we had at least 150 conversations about my "sin." I put sin in quotes because my "sin" could range from anything like honestly being selfish and putting myself first to sneezing during a meeting because I didn't take cold medicine that I couldn't afford (the long lecture usually entailed how I should have always had money set aside for such things because it is good for the church. Nevermind that there are few medicines I even can take so it's a moot point anyway. When I was involved in that particular group, I missed ONE bible study for two years. I got challenged about my comittment. They asked my friend to leave because she didn't want to move in with us.
This thread has been very convicting to me that I have to walk my talk and go to these people for my own healing and to protect others. I thankfully don't have to deal with them but others do.

 

[gtmyers]

Sad that the pastor is not accountable to anyone. It seems to me its already a cult. Reminds me alot of Jim Jones.