Discussion Pastor & wife say they don't believe Jesus is GOD❔❓

[NoFrills]

..sigh...
After having more conversations with the pastor today I quoted different scriptures which he had some rebuff for each time .. and then I gave him this verse:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace - Isa 9:6

After pointing out that it says Jesus is called 'mighty God', the pastor replied and said "it says that He'll be CALLED mighty God but it doesn't say He IS mighty God"

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Trinitarian orthodox (mainstream) Christianity spent a few centuries fighting this battle already... There is no need for you to re-litigate this issue. Why not get out? Amos 3:3 (I also would consider this one of the "milk" teaching of Christianity especially today in light of theological development that has taken place over the two millennia).

 

[mkgal1]

You shouldn't be having to argue these things with your pastor (if anything, he should be the one pointing these things to you - not the other way around). IMO....as it's already been mentioned in this thread, Christology is critical to one's theology. I pray you find another church to call your community (one where the True Gospel is taught and revered).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

..sigh...
After having more conversations with the pastor today I quoted different scriptures which he had some rebuff for each time .. and then I gave him this verse:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace - Isa 9:6

After pointing out that it says Jesus is called 'mighty God', the pastor replied and said "it says that He'll be CALLED mighty God but it doesn't say He IS mighty God"

Revelation 1:7-8 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
7 See, he is coming in the clouds and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him, and his coming will mean bitter sorrow to every tribe upon the earth. So let it be!

8 “I am Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13-16 King James Version (KJV)
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[Kenny'sID]

When I first got saved, I understood Jesus is Lord to mean Jesus is my Master.

Me too, among other things...savior, master, mentor, and the list is probably long

 

[chevyontheriver]

..sigh...
After having more conversations with the pastor today I quoted different scriptures which he had some rebuff for each time .. and then I gave him this verse:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace - Isa 9:6

After pointing out that it says Jesus is called 'mighty God', the pastor replied and said "it says that He'll be CALLED mighty God but it doesn't say He IS mighty God"

So it sounds like this pastor might actually not be a believer. What can you do? Would you take some other believers to meet with this pastor? Who is the pastor's boss?

 

[fwGod]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

You mention the antidepressants in relation to him not believing that Jesus is God.. would you see that as a connection?

Does he not believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

You mention the antidepressants in relation to him not believing that Jesus is God.. would you see that as a connection?

Does he not believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

I'm pretty sure this is a matter of Creed. Starting with the Churches beliefs and likely the pastors "reading the Bible" with an Arian interpretation.


Godhead[edit]
The UPCI adheres to a "oneness" concept of the Godhead, in contrast to orthodox belief in the Trinity. Hence, an understanding of Oneness doctrine over against Trinitarian doctrine is critical in any analysis of UPCI beliefs.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three consubstantial persons,[6] or hypostases[7]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[8] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is.[9][10][11]

Oneness believers, by contrast, hold that God is absolutely and indivisibly one. (Deuteronomy 6:4) This verse, as oneness believers believe, confirms that there is NO TRINITY, the Lord is one. They also affirm that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily and that Jesus is the only name given for salvation (Colossians 2:9). The Father was revealed to the world in the name of Jesus, the Son was given the name of Jesus at birth, and the Holy Spirit comes to believers in the name of Jesus. Thus they believe the apostles correctly fulfilled Christ's command to baptize “in the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” by baptizing all converts with the invocation of the name of Jesus (Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16).[12]

Oneness believers affirm that God has revealed Himself as Father (in parental relationship to humanity), in the Son (in human flesh), and as the Holy Spirit (in spiritual action). They acknowledge that the one God existed as Father, Word, and Holy Spirit before His incarnation as Jesus Christ, the Son of God; and that while Jesus walked on earth as God Himself incarnate, the Spirit of God continued to be omnipresent.[13]

United Pentecostal Church International - Wikipedia


Some of the pastor's statements actually seem to contradict the official non-Trinitarian theology of that Church in the direction of the Arian heresy... or even a form of Adoptionism.

Adoptionism - Wikipedia


Arianism - Wikipedia

 

[fwGod]

My prayers go to the pastor and his wife.

 

[NoFrills]

You mention the antidepressants in relation to him not believing that Jesus is God.. would you see that as a connection?
Does he not believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

The hoards of antidepressants and his admittance that He doesn't seek emotional healing are not connected (at least I don't think they are) to the fact He denies the divinity of Yeshua.
Sure, he says Jesus is the son of God but claims He is a created being much like angels, demons and satan. Scripture states that Jesus 'LEFT HIS DIVINITY BEHIND' when He came to earth so that He could live this life and learn to overcome via access to God's power just the same way we do. But when He overcame and then returned to glory, He assumed His position as Diety.

I'm pretty sure this is a matter of Creed. Starting with the Churches beliefs and likely the pastors "reading the Bible" with an Arian interpretation.
Godhead[edit]
The UPCI adheres to a "oneness" concept of the Godhead, in contrast to orthodox belief in the Trinity. Hence, an understanding of Oneness doctrine over against Trinitarian doctrine is critical in any analysis of UPCI beliefs.

The pastor is not United Pentecostal. He is independent pentecostal. The Assemblies of Canada, UPC, and AOG acknowledge that Jesus is God. This pastor came out of a fundamental type of church [he was fired] and chose to go with a pentecostal platform, but doesnt believe Jesus is God.

 

[NoFrills]

So it sounds like this pastor might actually not be a believer. What can you do? Would you take some other believers to meet with this pastor? Who is the pastor's boss?

He has no boss... it's a theocracy set up and he is not under an umbrella. He began the church independently - which would be fine aside from the fact that his teachings are shallow and he doesn't believe Yeshua is DIVINITY.

The other problem, which I consider very serious, is the fact that he and his wife and the couple deacons who started the church HIDE this fact purposefully. When people ask them what their foundational beliefs are, they skip around and do not answer frankly. He says "it shouldn't matter as long as we are all trying to be like Jesus. The problem with this is the fact that it's highly deceptive as he's robbing parishioners of the right to choose for themselves if they want to be 'led' by someone who doesn't believe Jesus is God.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Sure, he says Jesus is the son of God but claims He is a created being much like angels, demons and satan. Scripture states that Jesus 'LEFT HIS DIVINITY BEHIND' when He came to earth so that He could live this life and learn to overcome via access to God's power just the same way we do. But when He overcame and then returned to glory, He assumed His position as Diety.

That concept is called Kenosis.

Kenosis - Wikipedia

 

[chevyontheriver]

He has no boss...

That's a VERY bad sign.

 

[KateforChrist]

If my pastor said this I'd be finding a new church (ie assembly of believers, I know that the church are the believers).

 

[Radagast]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

Maybe you should go to a church where the pastor believes that Jesus is God.

That seems like the absolute minimum, it seems to me.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

So it sounds like this pastor might actually not be a believer. What can you do? Would you take some other believers to meet with this pastor? Who is the pastor's boss?

Matthew 18:15-18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
When Someone Hurts You
15 “If your brother or sister in God’s family does something wrong, go and tell them what they did wrong. Do this when you are alone with them. If they listen to you, then you have helped them to be your brother or sister again. 16 But if they refuse to listen, go to them again and take one or two people with you. Then there will be two or three people who will be able to tell all that happened.[a] 17 If they refuse to listen to them, tell the church. And if they refuse to listen to the church, treat them as you would treat someone who does not know God or who is a tax collector.

18 “I can assure you that when you speak judgment here on earth, it will be God’s judgment. And when you promise forgiveness here on earth, it will be God’s forgiveness.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The hoards of antidepressants and his admittance that He doesn't seek emotional healing are not connected (at least I don't think they are) to the fact He denies the divinity of Yeshua.
Sure, he says Jesus is the son of God but claims He is a created being much like angels, demons and satan. Scripture states that Jesus 'LEFT HIS DIVINITY BEHIND' when He came to earth so that He could live this life and learn to overcome via access to God's power just the same way we do. But when He overcame and then returned to glory, He assumed His position as Diety.

The pastor is not United Pentecostal. He is independent pentecostal. The Assemblies of Canada, UPC, and AOG acknowledge that Jesus is God. This pastor came out of a fundamental type of church [he was fired] and chose to go with a pentecostal platform, but doesnt believe Jesus is God.

Independent Pentecostal Church
African Independent Pentecostal Church of Africa and eschatology
IAOGI
The International Pentecostal Holiness Church - IPHC - Home
We believe there is but one living and true God, everlasting, of infinite power, wisdom and goodness; Maker and Preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in the unity of this Godhead, there are three Persons of one substance of eternal being, and equal in holiness, justice, wisdom, power, and dignity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Beliefs - IPHC

 

[lismore]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

This is a fairly common teaching now, I have on seen on the alleged 'GodTV' 'popular' American speakers, C Dollar, K Copeland etc expressing this view. You have celebrity preachers like 'Kanye West' endorsing Mormonism and J Olsteen saying Hindus are going to heaven. Also look at this theology survey:
The State of Theology

Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God?
Finding:2018: 78% agree vs. 18% disagree
2016: 71% agree vs. 23% disagree

We are in the last of the last days, many 'Christian' leaders are giving the lost what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear, entertaining the lost on their way to Hell for the sake of popularity and offerings. Sneaky wolves in sheep's clothing. Pop praise, slick motivational speaking, kerching.

But we have the truth to get out. Jesus said: 'If you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins' John 8:24.

Why not find another church nofrills? A good church can be a great blessing to you and you can be a great blessing there.

God Bless

 

[NoFrills]

Today I went to their church service again, it was so dry and dead and I felt so grieved inside. The preaching was dry as a bone and intellectual/logical as always. No Spirit led worship. What bothers me even more is the realization that this pastor has literally robbed the congregation of the ability to CHOOSE for themselves -- By deceiving them, they think they're in a church where Jesus equates to God.

Sooooo... after their morning service, I took 2 of the other women who also have been wondering what's wrong there, and I drove them to another church in town... This one was UNITED PENTECOSTAL! ----- WITHIN SECONDS OF ENTERING THE BUILDING I FELT A SENSE OF RELIEF WASH OVER ME ----- AND WHEN WORSHIP BEGAN THE SPIRIT OF GOD FELL STRONGLY ON US ALL AND WE WERE ALL FEASTING ON HIS PRESENCE -- I couldn't stop thanking Him!

..Some part of me had been wondering if I was quenching the Spirit all those months but now I see I wasn't, I just wasn't in a Spirit led church!

It's clear we need to leave the fake Pentecostal church. The UPC has a different VIEW of the set up of the trinity but they do not deny that Jesus is God!

- I also intend to speak to the pastors about their deception and possibly take others to speak to them as well. I need to wait on the Lord in regards to how to go forward. One of the women feels bad because the non spiritual church gave her $1000 to help her in her poverty and this will anger them if she leaves.. but we are to please God and not man -- Obey God not man. And we must not compromise!

Any prayers are welcome from those here who pray Yahweh's perfect will in this. Thanks so much for reading and giving input, I will continue to update as this drama unfolds. ..I'm anticipating that there will be hostility especially from the pastor's wife who is very hostile and has anger issues..

But bless God that He's leading us through this and OUT of a dead church

Thank you all for your comments.. I know I didn't respond to all, but all were read and pondered over..
@lismore @Daniel Marsh @Radagast @Pavel Mosko @fwGod @chevyontheriver @mkgal1 @Kenny'sID @yeshuaslavejeff @WolfGate @miamited @brinny @Brian Mcnamee @topher694 @Daniel9v9

 

[mkgal1]

Any prayers are welcome from those here who pray Yahweh's perfect will in this. Thanks so much for reading and giving input, I will continue to update as this drama unfolds. ..I'm anticipating that there will be hostility especially from the pastor's wife who is very hostile and has anger issues..

I'm praying for wisdom and discernment. This is only my opinion, but if you're convinced your words won't be heard (and worse, will only aggravate the situation more) do you really think it would serve any purpose to even see this pastor & his wife again?

I'm glad you found a new community (and it must have been really encouraging to have the two friends from church go with you and confirm everything you were sensing).