Pastor telling we must give large lump sum or increase giving amount

[dee100]

Greetings in the name of Jesus,
Following are 2 emails from our pastor (of an evangelical charismatic church of England church, congregation 100), telling us to make a sacrifice in our giving, to fast and pray to God re the amount we will give, to give a larger lump sum or to increase our giving by standing order.
There is no deficit or urgent need, this request he sends out I think, yearly.
Every week a basket is passed around, no offering speeches accept last week in preparation for us to give more this Sunday, sermon by an elder: “when i give more, I have more to give”
We are in London experiencing autumn, the pastor is now in “sunny brazil”. He has 5 children under 18.
I’m interested to know what you all think?
Email last week;
“our Gifts & Talents month culminates with a Gift Day on Sunday 24th September, which as has been mentioned, is an opportunity to pray and pledge a one-off lump sum financial gift to God’s wonderful work through our church, and/or to review your regular standing order giving with a view to adjusting it upwards (or to start a standing order for the first time).”
In previous Gift Days, people have found this to be a time of drawing close to the Lord and building faith as they trust him with a decision to be sacrificial in giving financially. In fact, many have been doing this for years. This kind of activity should only really take place in the context of seeking God through prayer. As it says in Ephesians 6:18: “And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people.”
Received today:
“Greetings from sunny Brazil! I’ve seen some great things going on at the New Destiny project that our church supports. I’m back in the next day or two and can’t wait to get stuck into to the above.
Beneath my sign-off below, I have added at the bottom a reminder of what this weekend is about, but I wanted to email with a further encouragement to you to join me, if your health permits, in fasting from something material – whether food or screens or something else – from Friday morning until Saturday morning at 8.30am when those of us in the church at the end of the 6-9am prayer will sit down to eat and drink together.
Fasting involves a certain degree of sacrifice and focuses on the prayer we are doing. Giving financially to God’s work through this church is a very important matter and it is crucial that we take it seriously. Fasting is serious! Therefore we have more time to pray if we are going without food after Friday breakfast, or if we are feeding others in that time, we certainly have the feeling of earnest coming to us each time we are reminded of the slight ache in the stomach or of the other type of thing that we are giving up.”

I’m interested to know what you all think?

 

[Dawnhammer]

First it is sunny Brazil, next time it is for the private jet to get there. But more you fast more money you can save for the jet fuel. Obviously it is all for the God, getting a nice tan is just a side effect.

This is why people are getting more secular......

 

[Sabertooth]

Is he in Brazil on some kind of missionary outreach? Did he go with the church's blessing? (I wouldn't be too quick to assume that it was just a lavish vacation.)

If he is stuck from lack of funds, it sounds like, at least, poor planning on his part.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Honestly, it sounds fishy. He seems convoluted in his emails, one second urging fasting and in the next moment couching those comments with exhortations to give more money. My instincts tell me that he could be pitting the two up against each other, thinking that many will choose to give money in order to get out of the fasting part of the deal, LoL.

But yes, the other part that bothers me is the different standard of living that goes with urges to give more to the work of God. I see this here where I live, and I know of several people who stopped going to their churches because the pastor and his family were living high on the hog when some in the congregation couldn't pay their electricity bills. Yet everyone would be under a "curse" if they didn't pay their tithes.

Maybe your pastor is ok. Only God knows. But my gut instinct (for whatever it's worth) tells me it all sounds a little off.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I would have to question the church's financial situation. It is good to have a period of considering how you're giving back what God has given you the grace to earn. It is good to fast in some way (like abandon Starbucks) and use that money to give to the Church. But if the people in the seats see too much lavishness, they do tend to shie away.

The Catholic Church does it differently. We believe it's all God's and what we give of our time, talent and treasure is all his anyway. Sometimes this results in some parishioners who give a lot and some who give a dollar. At any rate, the parish seems to survive, and raises money for special needs (like a new roof) as they come up. Of course, our priests don't get paid much, but they have a salary which allows them gas and insurance and a decent meal a couple times a week.

 

[paul1149]

This kind of activity should only really take place in the context of seeking God through prayer. As it says in Ephesians 6:18: “And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people.”

He's definitely got that part right. It all is a question of prayer. At issue is how much you trust this church's leadership, whether you're called to be there, the degree of accountability, etc. Without trust, not much good is going to be accomplished. Give what the Lord releases you to give. I would give no more than that.

1Thess 5 tells us to "make sure of all things; hold fast to what is good". There's nothing wrong with asking for money, per se. It's how it's done and why it's done that are the issues. I think only you can determine whether you are comfortable with the way this church is doing it. It is small enough that communication shouldn't be a problem. In fact, the last time I visited a Catholic church they had the last week's giving printed right in the bulletin.

 

[dayhiker]

I guess I don't see anything wrong in what he says in his emails.
I do listen to what the Holy Spirit tells me to do and who I'm to give my money too. God tells me to give about half the money or services I give to someone who isn't in the church or ministry.
Like now I'm setting some money aside feeling that I'll be going to the areas devastated by the hurricanes to help with the remodelling of damaged homes. To me that communicates the gospel more to people I personally give money to the church.

 

[SeventyOne]

Tell him to trust in the Lord and to live by faith.

 

[Paidiske]

If he's a C of E priest, then he'll be on a set stipend, and it ain't that huge. So this appeal isn't to line his own pockets.

 

[dee100]

My Church gave £78,000 or about £87,000 to church of england last year

 

[miamited]

Hi dee,

I don't see any problem with the emails. Apparently this annual plea for tithes has been going on for some time and he's just carrying on the tradition. I think it's perfectly normal and natural for the pastor or whoever is in charge of finances (speaking of larger fellowships that have different people in charge of different aspects of the fellowship) would write some kind of encouraging message to 'kick off' this established annual drive for tithes. So, whether there is a current need, most fellowships have plans of what they could/would do if they had greater finances.

His being in Brazil seems to be a sort of missions trip and I certainly don't see anything wrong with that. Generally, when people go on mission trips, they may be going to exciting places, but they aren't there just for sightseeing and happy vacation memories. Our fellowship participates in such trips, although generally the pastor himself doesn't go. However, I will allow that maybe he's misusing these trips, but I'd want to see some proof that it's some kind of fraud before I'd hold any condemnation that he went to Brazil for a mission trip.

So, at this point he's written a plea for greater tithes and that seems to be in keeping with at least a few years of the practice of this fellowship. Now it's up to each one to decide whether they will participate and how much they will participate. As far as I can tell, that's really all that's going on here.

Things change in how fellowships operate from time to time, it's just a natural progression of most fellowships. They have committees that are usually tasked with finding and looking into things that might be done better or different and often times they come up with ideas that are rolled out.

The fellowship where I attend just changed how the pre-school children would be handled during services. It used to be that they were encouraged to go straight to age appropriate youth groups and now they are encouraged to sit in 'big church' through the singing of hymns of the beginning of the service and then are encouraged to leave the grown up service for their smaller groups. Personally, I think they should go straight to their small group because that allows the small group more time to do things that they are involved in. By waiting until the sermon part of our adult service, they really only get about 25-30 minutes of time in their small groups. By the time you get them all settled in, I wouldn't think there'd be much time for any kind of 'project' lessons.

Anyway, that's my understanding of your question.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[dee100]

It seems to me perhaps he has overstepped his authority?Giving us commands and demands leaving no room for freewill?
Could he be abusing his authority? Saying we must all go to church Friday or Saturday to pray about how much more we are going to give? It seems to me he is making giving a large lump sum or increase giving as something holy by encouraging prayer and fasting. He put in a Bible verse to appear “clean” . Actually Ephesians 6 is a spiritual warfare verse aimed at evil powers! I doubt anyone in my church knows Eph 6. There is no record in the Bible of fasting re sacrificial giving.

Neither Jesus nor Paul ever asked for money for their ministries. Asking for money is not biblical as per the New Testament....suggests lack of faith in God. (Jesus and Paul did accept support/donations...without ever asking for it. Paul only asked for money for those dying of starvation in the famine in Jerusalem, not for his ministry.)

Our pastor is demanding, commanding us to give a lump sum that we cannot afford or increase giving that we cannot afford or start a standing order. He does not give us any choice to reflect on whether we want to give more then we can afford. This is not “cheerful giving". He is not showing us the church finances which means the church is healthy financially.

He has told me in an email he is not accountable to anybody. He did not ask our blessing to go to sunny brazil. I have a feeling the money we gave to the mission partner in brazil is very small and does not justify a trip to brazil...I am checking that out now. Today he has softened it all. perhaps because the secretary sent him my email yesterday, requesting to see the last year’s financial accounts and how much given to ministry partners. He has changed a bit now with this email today...the verses he quotes do change things a bit:

Subject: Tonight, tomorrow and Sunday!

“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”


“Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well.”


“Each one of you should give whatever you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”


(Matthew 6:21, 33; 2 Corinthians 9:7)




Dear Church,


As you pray and consider this weekend about giving sacrificially to the work of our church, please join me in the church at some point between 6–9pm tonight or between 6–9am tomorrow morning to [pray and hear from God about this. If you are fasting from food today, there will be croissants and coffee/orange juice at 8.30am tomorrow.


During this Sunday morning’s service, as you know, the opportunity will be provided to give/pledge to the work of our church, over and above your regular giving, or to increase/make a start to regular giving.


May God bless during this weekend of worship and gratitude to him,
.

 

[miamited]

Hi dee,

Maybe I don't read words the same as you do, but...

I don't see any indication that he is commanding or demanding in any of these emails. Yes, he is making it an important part of this season of giving that your fellowship seems to be involved in. In his first email he starts off: our Gifts & Talents month culminates with a Gift Day on Sunday 24th September...

So, it seems that the fellowship is holding a special season to give. Yes, he is asking that everyone search their hearts, but he ends up saying that this kind of activity should only really take place in the context of seeking God through prayer. I don't see what you seem to see in these emails. Many, many fellowships have these same kinds of 'tithe building' seasons. If you don't want to give more than don't give more. After all, the Scriptures are clear that God loves a cheerful giver. If you can't cheerfully give more to the operations and outreach funding of your fellowship with a cheerful heart, then don't. The pastor isn't going to get a list of those who did or didn't increase their giving.

In a fellowship that I was involved in many years ago, they had these seasons every year, however, the pastor always pointed out that it was not an attempt to make anyone uncomfortable and that he wasn't even involved in the financial giving of the people and never had any idea whether any members gave or didn't give. He was a pastor and he served the fellowship in that capacity and one's giving had no bearing on how he felt about anyone. There were many times when there were special funding needs and they would be brought before the fellowship and the call was made that anyone who could give more or give a one time gift, should. If I felt like giving I did. If I didn't, I didn't. However, these calls were most always closed with the truth of God, that they only wanted gifts or tithing that one could give with a cheerful heart.

You seem to be taking this as some personal affront. Now, whether that's because you are lacking in your giving or are embarrassed in what you give or the belief that you can't give more is strictly your issue and you're going to have to deal with that. However, I don't find anything wrong with anything that this pastor has written about this 'gifts and talents month'. He makes a comment in the next paragraph of the first email that this has happened before in the fellowship. He comments about 'previous gift days' and allows that some have been doing so for years.

My question to you is why you find this call to gifts and tithing sacrificially as some affront? Most all fellowships have a month or few weeks that each year they set aside for teaching about tithing. What it means. Why it's done, etc. In pretty much all of them that I have been involved with there is most usually a call for increased giving if anyone feels lacking in their giving.

Now, someone posted that Paul never wrote about tithing. He may not have specifically mentioned tithing but he does talk about a pastor being paid for his work. Most fellowships don't print money. Operating a budget for staff and facilities and children's youth activities and hymnals and bibles in the pew racks aren't free. It isn't like some staff member of a fellowship goes to some central receiving agency to pick up the pastor's check and monies for utilities and the various other expenses of a fellowship that just miraculously come down from heaven to them. Oh, and I don't know who wrote it, but someone in the new covenant did write: “Each one of you should give whatever you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” While that writer didn't use the word 'tithe' it was obviously a call for giving within the body of the fellowship.

No one has to tithe, but I can tell you that if no one does, then there won't be any fellowships meeting around town. Every building in which fellowships meet will soon close and lock their doors. Yes, some fellowships can be very demanding about giving and seem to harp on it all the time. I don't find that to be the case in your fellowship. However, if you're not happy with the way your fellowship operates, I'm sure there are others within your area.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think I agree that it's not Biblical to ask for money.

To my mind it's about the purpose to which that money will be put. If it's to further the mission of the church in some way, then I think it's fair to appeal to people to participate in that mission financially.

If it's for some other purpose... then I think you're on shakier ground.

 

[God's Child]

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[samir]

I’m interested to know what you all think?

I think it's time to find another church.

Sunday, sermon by an elder: “when i give more, I have more to give”

That sounds like the prosperity gospel. I wouldn't attend a church that taught it.