Passivity or resistance when under life threatening persecution?

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Abaxvahl]

Hello Abaxvahl - Welcome to CF.
I will try to find time to read the article and your references. But I think you must agree, that there is no getting away from the fact, that God at various times has expressly commanded his people to go to war and kill.
Certainly at this moment I'm not 'a pacifist'. But it is striking that under The New Covenant there does seem to be some kind of pacifist ethos. At all times, in every situation? Of that I'm not at all convinced.
Go well
><>

Thank you for your welcome.

Exactly, though the article on war in the OT just emphasizes how God, despite that, seemed to equally hate violence and war as solutions to things. The NT and Christianity to me does have that kind of ethic with following Jesus as your example. Despite the OT and the violence of God in it, we now follow Jesus as God and His lessons (Hebrews 1:1-3, Colossians 2:9, Colossians 1:15, Colossians 1:19). The lessons and example of Jesus seem to be entirely of peace and non-violence, He Himself was a pacifist unto the end. The actions of those in the OT to me don't justify doing anything similar now (Luke 9:52-56*, as Elijah did). I am not sure when such a thing (the many, many verses on not fighting back, no vengeance or violence, etc) would ever break. Especially in the context of persecution for your faith.

 

[Lord Give Me A Sign]

Im a fighter by nature, i love to mix it up. If anyone comes after my family and friends im ready to go any place anytime

 

[Dave-W]

Are you saying then, that those Christians who have come to harm over the centuries just didn't pray/rebuke or didn't do it right??

It is not something taught in most churches - our authority as born again children of God; and are not accustomed to proclaiming Jesus' victory .

So Dave (and anyone else of whatever belief) what would you do? You're on that bus in Egypt, it suddenly stops, you see armed men just about to get on board, you know who they are and what they are going to do. You have a gun but as far as you know nobody else on the bus does. There is a chance you could at least disrupt the attack and enable some people to escape slaughter. What to do? What to do?

A quick prayer for guidance and following the instruction I get. That may mean I shoot and take out as many of the attackers as possible. It may mean being passive. God gives instruction specific to the situation.

 

[afishamongmany]

Thank you for your welcome.

Exactly, though the article on war in the OT just emphasizes how God, despite that, seemed to equally hate violence and war as solutions to things. The NT and Christianity to me does have that kind of ethic with following Jesus as your example. Despite the OT and the violence of God in it, we now follow Jesus as God and His lessons (Hebrews 1:1-3, Colossians 2:9, Colossians 1:15, Colossians 1:19). The lessons and example of Jesus seem to be entirely of peace and non-violence, He Himself was a pacifist unto the end. The actions of those in the OT to me don't justify doing anything similar now (Luke 9:52-56*, as Elijah did). I am not sure when such a thing (the many, many verses on not fighting back, no vengeance or violence, etc) would ever break. Especially in the context of persecution for your faith.

So Abaxvahl - I went through the article and bible verses you linked.
The article highlights everything that supports non-violent responses and glossed over God's support and use of violence. It just doesn't tackle in any serious way how the two realities can go together for a Christian.

Many of your bible references do not really address the specific question of whether or not a Christian should sometimes physically fight. Those that are relevant, it seem to me, are speaking of motives and attitudes which do not necessarily preclude, in every and all circumstances, aggressive physical responses.

If we define 'pacifist' as one who would never use aggressive physical force, then I don't believe The Lord Jesus was or is a pacifist. Consider carefully what we are shown in Matthew 26:53, John 2:15 and Revelation 19:11-21. His first coming was as an ambassador on a peace mission. His second coming will be as the conquering Lord of Hosts.

To decide to be a principled pacifist in every and all circumstances and to live that out is and act of courage but not one that I believe is required or desired by God.
Go well, go wisely,
><>

 

[afishamongmany]

Wondered if they were going to rob the people on the bus. If there was time, would probably have the riders start
tossing their valuables out the windows and see if that would distract them enough to get the bus moving again.
If could get the gunmen to start fighting amongst themselves over the jewelry and such being tossed out, then there might be a chance to block the doors of the bus with bags people have or something. There was smoke, but not sure what caused that. The only other thing I thought of earlier is to set it up as if people inside the bus have a spreading disease easily caught. Make them afraid to get on it for their own health. Set up a person as very ill and try to fake his death or illness with coats on him or something and others put stuff over their noses as if they are trying not to breathe in the germs.

Vinsight4u - with respect, you need to read more and understand better who these people are and what is driving them. Also an ordinary passenger bus will give only very partial and limited protection from bullets.
But at least you're not burying our head in the sand
Go well
><>

 

[GrowingSmaller]

In game theory, unless lucky, pacifists can be wiped away. Tit-for-tat can lead to endless strife. Tit-for-tat interspersed with scope for sometimes forgiving and starting over can sometimes be a best overall strategy.

 

[afishamongmany]

Im a fighter by nature, i love to mix it up. If anyone comes after my family and friends im ready to go any place anytime

Hello LGMS - Welcome to CF.
As a Christian aren't you supposed to 'walk in the Spirit', as per Galatians 5:16-25? Isn't our natural human nature (the flesh) something we are supposed to put to death?
Just wondering,
><>

 

[afishamongmany]

In game theory, unless lucky, pacifists can be wiped away. Tit-for-tat can lead to endless strife. Tit-for-tat interspersed with scope for sometimes forgiving and starting over can sometimes be a best overall strategy.

Hello Growing Smaller - So is that your 'philosophy'? How would that have worked out in practice in the egyptian bus massacre?
><>

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[afishamongmany]

It is not something taught in most churches - our authority as born again children of God; and are not accustomed to proclaiming Jesus' victory .

A quick prayer for guidance and following the instruction I get. That may mean I shoot and take out as many of the attackers as possible. It may mean being passive. God gives instruction specific to the situation.

Hi Dave - Maybe I need to study up the theology of 'authority'? I'm a born again child of God and am happy to proclaim Jesus' victory and to pray against anyone or anything that I believe means harm. But there is still the quandary of what is the right physical response and any given situation.
What if "the instruction I get" is, decide for yourself?
Go well
><>

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm