Passivity or resistance when under life threatening persecution?

[Ana the Ist]

Hi Ana - mmm not sure about the distinction you make in that last sentence.
Remember that the now ex and imprisoned president of Egypt, Morsi, was brought to power by demonstrations and protests. The Christians are very relieved that Sisi is now top man. But he needs to keep the majority muslim population sweet by not seeming to overly favour the Christians.
Go well
><>

You're not sure about the distinction?

When we're talking about persecution...we're generally talking about some kind of abuse that is normative in some way. Denying women the right to vote could be considered persecution...denying homosexuals the legal right to marry could be considered persecution...rounding up and exterminating all the jews could be considered persecution (should be considered persecution). If a group of muslims (like boko haram) start carrying out attacks against non-muslims...then we're really talking about acts of terrorism. I suppose it's not really a big distinction...but it's a distinction nonetheless.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Hi there Ygrene I - Thanks for your response. I'm afraid that most of it is just too deep, or too high, or maybe just to complicated for me?
I'm sorry that you have a problem about being recognised as a Christian on CF but there does have to be some kind of working definition and demarcation and the one used on CF seems ok to me.

Maybe you can help me fit in the CF list of categories for a Christian, because I don't see a fit:

I do not follow any denomination

I believe the entire cache of commandments given by God are operable and applicable today unless told otherwise.

I do not believe any apocryphal books should be outside of the inspiration of the Word of God; it is my sovereign right as a agent to determine the trajectory of my soul, and removing/adding books to canon does not profit the spirit in terms of maturity and discernment. Instead, it creates even more of a veil.

I believe in literal creation - based on what the Hebrew words mean. So, yes I do believe there was a planet before there was a sun, thriving with vegetation and chaotic transport.

I believe the Word of God/the Christ is alive today, but did die for the remission of sins.

I do not believe any church has authority over the consumption of the Word of God.

I believe in archons, principalities, elementals, demons, angels, powers and magic(k). I do not practice magick, and I do not summon spirits - however, I have had enough direct experience with all of the aforementioned to know it is real.

I do not believe in OSAS

I believe Genesis 6 describes the offspring of angelic and human copulation.

I do not believe angels, therefore, cannot "marry"/have sex - as they are angels, and can transsubstantiate into the appropriate anatomy. If we humans can produce fertility without a male or female, surely celestials like angels can do the same thing and compliment reproduction with humans.

Speaking of marriage: I believe sex = marriage, and there is no such thing as premarital sex, because when you have sex with someone you are twain. When you cheat, you have divorced your mate and espoused/twined with another.

The mythos of gods and men of antiquity and modernity, I believe, are kernels of truth for which the more fantastical kernels are actually meritorious.

and so on...


​

Let me know if you find any denomination that fits that.

You say, "... God is the only authority ..." but no, He is the supreme and final authority. God delegates, He expects us to make and take decisions within that area of responsibility that is our and that just doesn't always come easy

God only micromanages Christ - who is [the Son of] God anyway. He actually expects us to be warriors in the spirit.

God's people were never meant to be ruled by men, but since we are so ridiculous He allowed us to indulge our lusts - since the Hebrews saw other nations building and writing archives, and they begged to be like them. The Hebrews were faithless, and couldn't understand how they were all individually sovereign under God against each other.

Now, God has given us over to worldly authority. We are expected to, therefore, be citizens of that authority until it conflicts with the Word of God.

We are all sovereign agents. We choose our agency based on our hearts. As agents of the Most High God, we have an obligation to live a holy life. Do you think God is a push-over? He is patient and merciful, meek and long-suffering: but that doesn't mean He is in any shape or form a push-over.

Judgment is coming. His hand is heavy; He is meek and patient because He knows what will happen if we don't repent, and unleash His righteous anger.


As His children, we are also not to be pushovers. Sure, be long-suffering - even "turn the other cheek." But, that doesn't mean let yourself be beaten while saying, "thank you God!" Absolutely not! We are at war, and while melee is one fraction of the strategy, it is still useful for deterrent and justifying your boundaries with respect to dignity and survival.

Only at your appointed hour are you to "let go."

You also seem to be saying that those egyptian Christians who were massacred on that bus should have been on guard and armed. Well that's my 'feeling' also, assuming that they had that possibility which I'm thinking that they probably didn't. That's my 'feeling' but unlike you it's not my certainty.
Go well, go wisely,
><>

No, not at all. However, I do believe certain bible teaching and emphases ministers give set up the framework for an unnecessarily passive people who follow Christ. Christ wasn't a punk; He just knew how to pick His battles.

That is also a cultural thing.

For me, I figure I always have choices. If someone held a gun to my head and said get in, or I will kill your family and then you, I have several options:

Fight and Die
Fight and Live
Comply
Conspire and attempt a take-over
Run (and, likely die)
....

And remember, a man wouldn't have been taken by surprise if he has been watching (preparing.) He would have armed himself, and been prepared for the thief. The "powers that be" depend on biblical hyperbole that suggest they are to be followed with little or no question. Those same powers depend on "hippie Jesus" to keep the people compliant and psychologically frozen.


We have to get out of the mentality that life is binary - that is a psychological and spiritual curse from our parents eating from the knowledge of good and evil (duality) instead of consuming from the tree of LIFE. Now, 5000+ years later we are all trying to get back to unity fighting uphill against the heaviness and burden of duality: the power to judge between good and evil.

 

[afishamongmany]

You're not sure about the distinction?

When we're talking about persecution...we're generally talking about some kind of abuse that is normative in some way. Denying women the right to vote could be considered persecution...denying homosexuals the legal right to marry could be considered persecution...rounding up and exterminating all the jews could be considered persecution (should be considered persecution). If a group of muslims (like boko haram) start carrying out attacks against non-muslims...then we're really talking about acts of terrorism. I suppose it's not really a big distinction...but it's a distinction nonetheless.

Ok Ana, it's interesting, what meaning and weight we give to certain word and how that changes over time. Over the decades I've seen lots of these 'shifts' happen.
Of the three examples you gave I would only use the word 'persecution' for the last one. For me, certainly in the context of the OP question I see it as life-threatening actions, events, laws and acts of terrorism targeting a specific group .
Even with this view of the word, when a government can be said to to be persecuting as opposed to just applying the laws of the land is not always straightforward. Then there are the numerous cases where persecution is operative in a society because a government neglects (maybe through incompetence, corruption, or because it suits their politics) to apply the laws of the land.
Sad, sad old world,
><>

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ok Ana, it's interesting, what meaning and weight we give to certain word and how that changes over time. Over the decades I've seen lots of these 'shifts' happen.
Of the three examples you gave I would only use the word 'persecution' for the last one. For me, certainly in the context of the OP question I see it as life-threatening actions, events, laws and acts of terrorism targeting a specific group .

Really? So, hypothetically, if a law were passed that prohibited christians from holding an elected office...you wouldn't consider that persecution?

Even with this view of the word, when a government can be said to to be persecuting as opposed to just applying the laws of the land is not always straightforward. Then there are the numerous cases where persecution is operative in a society because a government neglects (maybe through incompetence, corruption, or because it suits their politics) to apply the laws of the land.
Sad, sad old world,
><>

Did you have an example of this in mind?

 

[afishamongmany]

Maybe you can help me fit in the CF list of categories for a Christian, because I don't see a fit:

I do not follow any denomination
I believe the entire cache of commandments given by God are operable and applicable today unless told otherwise.
I do not believe any apocryphal books should be outside of the inspiration of the Word of God; it is my sovereign right as a agent to determine the trajectory of my soul, and removing/adding books to canon does not profit the spirit in terms of maturity and discernment. Instead, it creates even more of a veil.

I believe in literal creation - based on what the Hebrew words mean. So, yes I do believe there was a planet before there was a sun, thriving with vegetation and chaotic transport.
I believe the Word of God/the Christ is alive today, but did die for the remission of sins.
I do not believe any church has authority over the consumption of the Word of God.
I believe in archons, principalities, elementals, demons, angels, powers and magic(k). I do not practice magick, and I do not summon spirits - however, I have had enough direct experience with all of the aforementioned to know it is real.

I do not believe in OSAS

I believe Genesis 6 describes the offspring of angelic and human copulation.
I do not believe angels, therefore, cannot "marry"/have sex - as they are angels, and can transsubstantiate into the appropriate anatomy. If we humans can produce fertility without a male or female, surely celestials like angels can do the same thing and compliment reproduction with humans.
Speaking of marriage: I believe sex = marriage, and there is no such thing as premarital sex, because when you have sex with someone you are twain. When you cheat, you have divorced your mate and espoused/twined with another.
The mythos of gods and men of antiquity and modernity, I believe, are kernels of truth for which the more fantastical kernels are actually meritorious.
and so on...​

Let me know if you find any denomination that fits that.

God only micromanages Christ - who is [the Son of] God anyway. He actually expects us to be warriors in the spirit.
but since we are so ridiculous He allowed us to indulge our lusts - since the Hebrews saw other nations building and writing archives, and they begged to be like them. The Hebrews were faithless, and couldn't understand how they were all individually sovereign under God against each other.
Now, God has given us over to worldly authority. We are expected to, therefore, be citizens of that authority until it conflicts with the Word of God.

We are all sovereign agents. We choose our agency based on our hearts. As agents of the Most High God, we have an obligation to live a holy life. Do you think God is a push-over? He is patient and merciful, meek and long-suffering: but that doesn't mean He is in any shape or form a push-over.
Judgment is coming. His hand is heavy; He is meek and patient because He knows what will happen if we don't repent, and unleash His righteous anger.

As His children, we are also not to be pushovers. Sure, be long-suffering - even "turn the other cheek." But, that doesn't mean let yourself be beaten while saying, "thank you God!" Absolutely not! We are at war, and while melee is one fraction of the strategy, it is still useful for deterrent and justifying your boundaries with respect to dignity and survival.
Only at your appointed hour are you to "let go."

No, not at all. However, I do believe certain bible teaching and emphases ministers give set up the framework for an unnecessarily passive people who follow Christ. Christ wasn't a punk; He just knew how to pick His battles.
That is also a cultural thing.
For me, I figure I always have choices. If someone held a gun to my head and said get in, or I will kill your family and then you, I have several options:
Fight and Die
Fight and Live
Comply
Conspire and attempt a take-over
Run (and, likely die)
....
And remember, a man wouldn't have been taken by surprise if he has been watching (preparing.) He would have armed himself, and been prepared for the thief. The "powers that be" depend on biblical hyperbole that suggest they are to be followed with little or no question. Those same powers depend on "hippie Jesus" to keep the people compliant and psychologically frozen.
We have to get out of the mentality that life is binary - that is a psychological and spiritual curse from our parents eating from the knowledge of good and evil (duality) instead of consuming from the tree of LIFE. Now, 5000+ years later we are all trying to get back to unity fighting uphill against the heaviness and burden of duality: the power to judge between good and evil.

Hello Ygrene I,
Your post is much longer than I normally would tackle but again you write with passion and conviction and you say some interesting things. For that reason I will try to respond, even though most of it is off topic. As it is my thread I feel ok with that but I will discourage and further derailment .

1-No neither do I 'follow' any denomination. If you are not accepted as 'Christian' by CF is must be because there is something or things in the CF's statement of faith that you disagree with. Looking through your post I see some things that I disagree with but I see nothing that would bar you from being accepted as a 'Christian' in CF.
2- You say, "God's people were never meant to be ruled by men, ..." - "... The Hebrews ... couldn't understand how they were all individually sovereign under God against each other.".
It seems to me that your understanding of how a christian should view 'authority' is a bit exaggerated?, maybe over idealised?.
Yes God is the supreme and final authority in all matters. But no society can function without some sort of authority structure. Family, farm, factory, schools, governments, God delegates down His Authority. That that delegated authority is often misused, contrary to God's will, does not mean that we can then reject all human authority as being bad. The Christian is told to, "pray and give thanks for kings and all who are in authority." 1Timothy 2:1,2.
3- Sure I agree, there is too much passivity/complacency among Christians as there is too much of many other things such as confusion, easy believism, fear of man, love of the world, hardness of heart, di da di da di da. But remember that we can also be very active, passionate and intense, thinking to serve God but in reality it is just us.
I think of those accounts of certain Christians, during the Roman persecutions, who deliberately tried to get themselves arrested and martyred. I don't think their reception above would have been what they were hoping for.
4- So we come back to the OP question. Yes my hope and expectation is that in any and every situation God will guide and enable me to do/say the right things but you know we have to think ahead. Sometimes decision have to be made now (individually and collectively) for future possibilities.
5- Your thought on 'binary mentality' and the 'burden of duality' are interesting but you need to expand and clarify what you mean by 'consuming from the tree of LIFE' as an alternative.
Discerning between good and evil, between right and wrong, and making our LIFE decisions accordingly is, it seems to me, a good way of living.
Go well
><>

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Hello Ygrene I,
Your post is much longer than I normally would tackle but again you write with passion and conviction and you say some interesting things. For that reason I will try to respond, even though most of it is off topic. As it is my thread I feel ok with that but I will discourage and further derailment .

1-No neither do I 'follow' any denomination. If you are not accepted as 'Christian' by CF is must be because there is something or things in the CF's statement of faith that you disagree with. Looking through your post I see some things that I disagree with but I see nothing that would bar you from being accepted as a 'Christian' in CF.

It is more than a disagreement; I am a "brother" of the denomination and faith until we hit one of those aforementioned attributes of my faith.

Knowledge of the supernatural is a big separation issue; many Christians think I am possessed for having seen supernatural and magic (despite the fact it was all assault on me.)

Believing in a literal creation is another issue of separation.

Following all of God's commandments: the thought that ALL of His law is applicable today is what usually gets me called some choice words, ironically.

I am not desperate to be a part of an earthly denomination; I have my bro and Father, and anyone else individually. My skin is thick, and I don't mind being called a heretic.

2- You say, "God's people were never meant to be ruled by men, ..." - "... The Hebrews ... couldn't understand how they were all individually sovereign under God against each other.".
It seems to me that your understanding of how a christian should view 'authority' is a bit exaggerated?, maybe over idealised?.
Yes God is the supreme and final authority in all matters. But no society can function without some sort of authority structure. Family, farm, factory, schools, governments, God delegates down His Authority. That that delegated authority is often misused, contrary to God's will, does not mean that we can then reject all human authority as being bad. The Christian is told to, "pray and give thanks for kings and all who are in authority." 1Timothy 2:1,2.

Not exaggerated at all. God meant exactly what He said: that He was supposed to be our King, but since we wanted so bad to be like the work/civilization at the time He gave us over to the imperfection of being ruled by a human. Why would we submit to another authority if we are to have no god before Him? It is very simple when you break it down to the fundamentals - minus the veil.

Again: the society of God is supposed to have ONE KING: [the Word of] God.

The reason why people cannot fathom this is because they have been taught to believe being ruled in the open by an "Uranus-like 'Sky Daddy'" is foolishness. People are letting people determine the trajectory of their spiritual lives through slick talk.

3- Sure I agree, there is too much passivity/complacency among Christians as there is too much of many other things such as confusion, easy believism, fear of man, love of the world, hardness of heart, di da di da di da. But remember that we can also be very active, passionate and intense, thinking to serve God but in reality it is just us.
I think of those accounts of certain Christians, during the Roman persecutions, who deliberately tried to get themselves arrested and martyred. I don't think their reception above would have been what they were hoping for.

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6
​

If you are trying to deliberately martyr yourself to slick the "system," you are already more than foolish. Faith without works is dead, and too many people believe God's law is conditional and null or void (some or all of it.) The earth hasn't passed away; the law is not gone (not even one iota.) Faith in Him is great; "what have we done for Him lately?"

​

4- So we come back to the OP question. Yes my hope and expectation is that in any and every situation God will guide and enable me to do/say the right things but you know we have to think ahead. Sometimes decision have to be made now (individually and collectively) for future possibilities.

No, that is the point of "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:19-20

We are suppose to WAIT on Him.

5- Your thought on 'binary mentality' and the 'burden of duality' are interesting but you need to expand and clarify what you mean by 'consuming from the tree of LIFE' as an alternative.
Discerning between good and evil, between right and wrong, and making our LIFE decisions accordingly is, it seems to me, a good way of living.
Go well
><>

Trees are metaphors for entities. When Christ healed the blind man, Christ asked the man what He saw while his vision was coming back, but blurry - and he said he saw trees likened unto men. This was a hint on the spiritual representation of physical bodies: bodies are described as trees spiritually.

Therefore, the tree of Life is Christ (unity); the tree of knowledge of good and evil (duality) is an entity of deception and deceit - influencing other entities to forsake unity for division (binary/duality.)

We are all subject to binary mentality unless we try to be unified in mind, body and spirit. When Adam and Eve "consumed" from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they listened, emulated, observed and believed that entity that beguiled them.

IF they had "consumed" of the tree of LIFE, they would have listened, emulated, observed, and believed Christ.

The duality of "right/wrong, left/right, up/down, black/white, etc." are paradigms of duality that have deceived the entirety of the human history. We believe duality is good because we have no idea what unity is.

 

[Dave-W]

Hello - I see there is already a 'Persecution' thread here started by Lik3 but I'd like this one to be focused on the question in the thread title. I've chosen this forum rather than the 'Christians only' alternative as I'm interested in the common human dilemma involved at the heart of the question.

You left out the option of taking authority over the situation in the name of Jesus.

 

[afishamongmany]

afishamongmany said: ↑
Ok Ana, it's interesting, what meaning and weight we give to certain word and how that changes over time. Over the decades I've seen lots of these 'shifts' happen.
Of the three examples you gave I would only use the word 'persecution' for the last one. For me, certainly in the context of the OP question I see it as life-threatening actions, events, laws and acts of terrorism targeting a specific group .

Really? So, hypothetically, if a law were passed that prohibited christians from holding an elected office...you wouldn't consider that persecution?

No, I'd consider it discrimination. Probably unjust discrimination, depending on the full context.
I've been used 'life-threatening' as some kind of benchmark to determine what is 'persecution' because of the starting point of the OP, but ok, I think we need to widen it a bit. Such things as imprisonment, the forbidding of assembly and economic and educational disadvantaging solely because of ones beliefs or ethnicity, need to be in the picture.

Even with this view of the word, when a government can be said to to be persecuting as opposed to just applying the laws of the land is not always straightforward. Then there are the numerous cases where persecution is operative in a society because a government neglects (maybe through incompetence, corruption, or because it suits their politics) to apply the laws of the land.
Did you have an example of this in mind?

Did you have an example of this in mind?
In China it is illegal to meet together for christian worship if you are not officially registered as belonging to the approved and controlled Three Self Patriotic Church. Unregistered church meetings are disrupted, people are imprisoned and fined. Is this persecution?

In a number of countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan it is against the law for citizens of that country to change their religion. In these countries it is definitely “life-threatening” to become a Christian.

The list of governments that officially proclaim religious freedom for all but where never the less there is much persecution is long, Nigeria, Egypt, Indonesia, Myanmar.

In the UK the case of Nissar Hussain I believe is a glaring example of a government that seems unable to govern according to it's professed principles of law and order and freedom of religon.
Chapter VI: The Case of Nissar Hussain, broken for Christ.

><>

 

[afishamongmany]

My skin is thick, and I don't mind being called a heretic.

That's good Ygrene, so long as you don't start to enjoy it too much.

Therefore, the tree of Life is Christ (unity); the tree of knowledge of good and evil (duality) is an entity of deception and deceit - influencing other entities to forsake unity for division (binary/duality.)

If you have the time and energy this might make a good thread. Then you could really set out the details of what this means. Not sure what forum, maybe Philosophy? If I'm understanding you correctly you see unity and duality as somehow in opposition to each other and that somehow duality is not good? Mmm I don't see why this should be. The Most High God (who is One, a unity) is a Trinity, which I suppose, one could describe as a triality.
Go well, go wisely,
><>

 

[afishamongmany]

You left out the option of taking authority over the situation in the name of Jesus.

Hello Dave-W - Christians should, and usually do pray, in every kind of difficulty. "Taking authority over a situation in the name of Jesus", is that a special kind of praying? Or is it looking the man with the machete in the eyes and telling him to calm down?
I'm interested to hear how this "taking authority" thing works.
Go well,
><>

 

[Ygrene Imref]

That's good Ygrene, so long as you don't start to enjoy it too much.

I don't enjoy it at all.

If you have the time and energy this might make a good thread. Then you could really set out the details of what this means. Not sure what forum, maybe Philosophy? If I'm understanding you correctly you see unity and duality as somehow in opposition to each other and that somehow duality is not good? Mmm I don't see why this should be. The Most High God is a Trinity, which I suppose, one could describe as a triality.
Go well, go wisely,
><>

Nil - 0
Uni (echad) - 1
bi (shnayim) - 2
tri - 3
quad - 4
quint - 5
sex - 6
sept - 7
...

This is the actual set up for sequence - the true sequence in Latin (Hebrew). From this, we get unity. Adam was in unity before he was split into binity as Adam and Eve (bone of my bones.) They were to return back to unity when they married/joined through sex. Unity, to binity, back to unity.

However, the juxtaposition of two things is not binity - it is duality. In the garden, Adam and Eve were beguiled into thinking having the power to judge the juxtaposition of good and evil was an attribute of the gods. Now, their offspring (us) believe that discerning subtlety (deception) and juxtaposition are the hallmarks of good judgment. In fact, the ability to have multiple things unified, yet maintaining the uniqueness, it is a true attribute of a god, as it were (which is why unification is so important in physics and mathematics - including uniqueness theorems.)

Duality is, in fact, a deception. However, since Adam and Eve chose that deception instead of learning how to live in unity, we as their offspring always favor division - no matter how right we know unity is.

Binity is not in opposition with unity, because it is actual "twoness" in one. The degeneracy is still unitary. The duality of matter and antimatter, for example, is a romanticism of that judgment of juxtaposition. In our duality, those things come together as opposite properties destroying each other and generating nihility. That is not what creation is about.

Creation is about producing a condition (ness) up to infinity, and then having infinity naturally (spontaneously) collapse back into unity.

The "Trinity" is something else which would most certainly, and necessarily need to be discussed in another thread.

 

[Dave-W]

"Taking authority over a situation in the name of Jesus", is that a special kind of praying? Or is it looking the man with the machete in the eyes and telling him to calm down?
I'm interested to hear how this "taking authority" thing works.

A female friend of mine was confronted by a person intent on raping her at knife point back in the 1970s. We were college students.

She saw the intent and started yelling at him: "I Rebuke you in the Name of Jesus and bind those spirits of lust and violence!" She repeated it a couple of times and the guy just ran away.

 

[afishamongmany]

A female friend of mine was confronted by a person intent on raping her at knife point back in the 1970s. We were college students.

She saw the intent and started yelling at him: "I Rebuke you in the Name of Jesus and bind those spirits of lust and violence!" She repeated it a couple of times and the guy just ran away.

Dave-W - That's good to hear. Praise God that your friend escaped harm.
Are you saying then, that those Christians who have come to harm over the centuries just didn't pray/rebuke or didn't do it right??
So Dave (and anyone else of whatever belief) what would you do? You're on that bus in Egypt, it suddenly stops, you see armed men just about to get on board, you know who they are and what they are going to do. You have a gun but as far as you know nobody else on the bus does. There is a chance you could at least disrupt the attack and enable some people to escape slaughter. What to do? What to do?
><>

 

[Abaxvahl]

Hello - I see there is already a 'Persecution' thread here started by Lik3 but I'd like this one to be focused on the question in the thread title. I've chosen this forum rather than the 'Christians only' alternative as I'm interested in the common human dilemma involved at the heart of the question.
This thread is not about forgiveness. For a Christian it is quite clear, we are to forgive. Nor is the thread about if, when, where or how persecution is happening or will happen in any particular region of the world.
This morning I read this,
from Barnabas prayer booklet -
“It is good this happened to the Copts (Christians) and not to anyone else. They forgive and do not retaliate.” This comment was made on Egyptian national TV by a muslim news presenter last year, after Islamic State militants had attacked a group of Christians on a family day out in Minya province, killing 29 and injuring 22, among them children. Praise God that the Christ-like response of His people is so much the norm in Egypt, and pray that this may draw many peace-loving Muslims to the Lord Jesus.
This talks of 'not retaliating' but what about self defense, what about being on guard, armed and ready to attack back when attacked (and therewith the possibility of killing and maiming the attackers)? If you, your family, your community were under this kind of threat and at the heart of your philosophy, beliefs, religion was some sort of 'be peaceful and nonviolent' principle, how would you deal with it?
><>

To me, though I have to do more reading on it, absolute pacifism (even to not defending yourself physically from an attacker) is what I see professed throughout the Bible, especially the NT (excellent OT violence article: War, Holy War - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online). Because of this, pacifism to me is absolutely one of the cores of the Christian faith, and just part of the basic practice day-to-day. Although not a deal-breaker for Salvation.

The totality of these verses prove in my view: Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2-3, Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27, Luke 6:35, Matthew 5:39, Luke 6:37, Luke 12:22, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 7:12, 1 Peter 3:8-9, Romans 12:17-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:15, Luke 6:42, Romans 5:8-10, 1 Peter 2:21, Ephesians 6:12, 2 Corinthians 10:4, John 8:7, Matthew 10:28, Romans 8:37, Luke 23:34 (1 John 2:6, 1 Corinthians 11:1), Colossians 3:12, Ephesians 4:31-32, especially in persecution 2 Corinthians 4:8-10.

In how I would deal with it, for a long time violent self-defense was what I held to (though I never was in a situation for it), so being imperfect I might fight back on instinct, but if I became aware of it during it (and awareness of what I am doing and feeling is something I am practicing a lot now) I would stop myself. Prayer (for God's Will to be done) should be the default response anyway, and that's something to work towards.

 

[afishamongmany]

To me, though I have to do more reading on it, absolute pacifism (even to not defending yourself physically from an attacker) is what I see professed throughout the Bible, especially the NT (excellent OT violence article: War, Holy War - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online). Because of this, pacifism to me is absolutely one of the cores of the Christian faith, and just part of the basic practice day-to-day. Although not a deal-breaker for Salvation.

The totality of these verses prove in my view: Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2-3, Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27, Luke 6:35, Matthew 5:39, Luke 6:37, Luke 12:22, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 7:12, 1 Peter 3:8-9, Romans 12:17-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:15, Luke 6:42, Romans 5:8-10, 1 Peter 2:21, Ephesians 6:12, 2 Corinthians 10:4, John 8:7, Matthew 10:28, Romans 8:37, Luke 23:34 (1 John 2:6, 1 Corinthians 11:1), Colossians 3:12, Ephesians 4:31-32, especially in persecution 2 Corinthians 4:8-10.

In how I would deal with it, for a long time violent self-defense was what I held to (though I never was in a situation for it), so being imperfect I might fight back on instinct, but if I became aware of it during it (and awareness of what I am doing and feeling is something I am practicing a lot now) I would stop myself. Prayer (for God's Will to be done) should be the default response anyway, and that's something to work towards.

Hello Abaxvahl - Welcome to CF.
I will try to find time to read the article and your references. But I think you must agree, that there is no getting away from the fact, that God at various times has expressly commanded his people to go to war and kill.
Certainly at this moment I'm not 'a pacifist'. But it is striking that under The New Covenant there does seem to be some kind of pacifist ethos. At all times, in every situation? Of that I'm not at all convinced.
Go well
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[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Even if you have a gun pointed to your head, you have a choice to [fight and] die.

It may not be the ideal choice, but it is a choice. There are no "no choice" situations.

 

[afishamongmany]

What bus in Egypt? Did I miss a reply under here?

The OP
Coptic Christians describe bus attack in Egypt: ‘Even the little children were targets’

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm