Partial Preterism, Full Preterism vs Hyper Preterism

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Last edited:

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Is that the correct link, LLoJ?
No.
Sorry..........

Discussion on Consistent Preterism and the Impact of AD70 as the Terminal Date (2015)


I will be mainly be using Preterist Archive in this thread because it is so comprehensive.......
Or just google search "hyper preterism"...........

Hyper Preterism Study Archive - A Collection of Books and Articles Presenting the Hyper and Full Preterist Views


HYPER PRETERISM

"Full preterist" material is being archived for balanced representation of all preterist views, but is classified under the theological term hyper (as in beyond the acceptable range of tolerable doctrines) at this website. The classification of all full preterism as Hyper Preterism (HyP) is built upon well over a decade of intense research at PreteristArchive.com, and the convictions of the website curator (a former full preterist pastor). The HyP theology of final resurrection and consummation in the fall of Jerusalem, with its dispensational line in AD70 (end of old age, start of new age), has never been known among authors through nearly 20 centuries of Christianity leading up to 1845, when the earliest known full preterist book was written. Even though there may be many secondary points of agreement between Historical/Modern Preterism and Hyper Preterism, their premises are undeniably and fundamentally different.

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED AS "HYPER PRETERIST"

Hyper Preterism: Defining "Hyper Preterism"- Criticisms from the Inside - Criticisms from the Outside || Progressive Pret | Regressive Pret | Former Full Preterists | Pret Scholars | Normative Pret | Reformed Pret | Pret Idealism | Pret Universalism


Upon realizing the fundamental error of "Full Preterism" in 2006 (which is 'mistaking the shadows for the substance of prophecy'), I began a study into whether the view of totally fulfilled eschatology was simply mistaken, or if it was indeed a critical departure from acceptable Christian doctrine. I say "acceptable" because there comes a point where the doctrinal departure is large enough to create a message different from that originally received and delivered. Any doctrine that corrupts and/or distorts the "present gospel" of Jesus Christ is both ichabod and anathema. This is a serious charge which was not made without a great deal of sacrifice. Only fools would dismiss it out of hand, especially considering the credibility of this source. PreteristArchive.com founded the full preterist movement on the Internet and built it to a position above where it lies today.

The hyper preterist position that the New Covenant didn't really come into maturity until AD70 (despite the fact that Christians had already been given access to the "holiest of all" 40 years prior -- cf. Hebrews 10:19-22) results in a different gospel message than that originally received from the pen of Inspiration. At Calvary, Jesus said "It is finished". This statement was confirmed by the tearing of the veil of separation in Herod's temple. To teach that access into the holiest of all is based on something other than Calvary is a horrible error. There are many other examples of AD70 becoming a primary focal point, outshining the glory revealed in the Sacrifice of the Lamb. The AD70 Storyline is Fundamentally Different from Historical Christianity's clear and united focus on Calvary as the definitive statement of the faith. [Full Preterist Response: "I categorically state that the physical object of the cross, wood and fiber, is not worthy of the love and adoration of Christians."]

WHAT IS "HYPER" PRETERISM?
IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO TAKE PRETERISM TOO FAR?


"Hyper" Preterism is defined here as that form of "fulfillment eschatology" which goes too far in declaring AD70 prophetic fulfillment and/or completion. In many cases, this threshold is reached by declaring that the shadows and types which were given to point to the Eschaton were actually the fulfillments themselves. One need not be a "Full Preterist" to embrace aspects of Hyper Preterism ; however, Full Preterist systems consistently apply Hyper Preterism to all areas of doctrine. Therefore, one could consider Full Preterism to be "Consistently Hyper Preterism", "Fully Hyper Preterism" or "Systematic Hyper Preterism". The point being that Full Preterism is actually systematized Hyper Preterism... and is ever so much dangerous than the more inconsistent forms of Preterism, or Historicist and Futurist systems which may advocate particular hyper preterist doctrines.

    • Larry Siegle: "There are three aspects to the events of A.D. 70 that deserve clarification in order to achieve a proper balance in our understanding of exactly what happened in the first-century. There are those who draw conclusions that are not necessarily the logical implications and therefore takes a person down a very long and dark pathway into error in their understanding of the Scriptures. Unless one is able to properly discern what “ended” in A.D. 70, in contrast with what “began” and therefore what “remains” his conclusions will be to take an extreme position concerning the truth."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
https://www.preteristarchive.com/full-preterism-study-archive/

A comprehensive list of all articles and books at PreteristArchive.com which explore the doctrines of

Full Preterism.
Included are works supportive and critical of the view. Note the header image for the nature of the post’s content. Posts are listed alphabetically according to the first name of the author.

The Preterist Approach to Revelation — The Unfolding of Biblical Eschatology

It is actually rather surprising that this criticism is repeated so often by conservative evangelical scholars. It implies that any biblical prophecies that have already been fulfilled are meaningless for readers in later generations. But are the Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled in the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus meaningless for later generations? Are the multitudes of Old Testament prophecies concerning the destruction of Israel and Judah and the subsequent exile meaningless for later generations? Obviously not, and neither would the prophecies in Revelation be any less meaningful or significant if it were shown that many or most of them have already been fulfilled. All Scripture is profitable (2 Tim. 3:16), even those parts of Scripture containing already fulfilled prophecies.

An issue that must be addressed before proceeding to an examination of the text of Revelation is our basic hermeneutical approach to the book. Over the course of the church’s history there have been four main approaches: the futurist, historicist, preterist, and idealist approaches.i The futurist approach understands everything from Revelation 4:1 forward to be a prophecy of things that are to occur just before the Second Coming of Christ. In other words, all of these prophesied events are still in the future from the perspective of the twenty-first century. According to proponents, this conclusion grows out of a belief that there is no correspondence between these prophesied events and anything that has yet occurred in history.ii

The historicist approach understands Revelation to be a prophecy of church history from the first advent until the Second Coming of Christ. This approach appears to have had its roots in the writings of Joachim of Fiore.iii It was later adopted by most of the Protestant Reformers, but it is held by very few today.iv The preterist approach to Revelation is most clearly contrasted with the futurist approach. According to the preterist approach, most of the prophecies in the book of Revelation were fulfilled not long after John wrote.v In other words, their fulfillment is past from the perspective of the twenty-first century.vi The fourth major approach to the book is the idealist or symbolic approach. According to this view, Revelation does not contain prophecies of specific historical events. Instead, it uses symbols to express timeless principles concerning the conflict between good and evil.

Until recently these various approaches have been considered by most to be mutually exclusive. A number of scholars, however, have begun to propose a fifth approach, which may be termed the eclectic approach. As one proponent of this view explains, “The solution is to allow the preterist, idealist, and futurist methods to interact in such a way that the strengths are maximized and the weaknesses minimized.”vii One of the first to espouse such an approach was George Ladd. He concluded that the correct method of interpreting the book of Revelation was to blend the futurist and preterist methods.viii He has been followed in this basic eclectic approach, although with different emphases, by a number of scholars including Gregory Beale, Grant Osborne, and Vern Poythress.ix
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
On another thread, there was this link mentioning F P vs H P.
I have never heard much of H P
Discuss.......


Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

Discussion on Consistent Preterism and the Impact of AD70 as the Terminal Date (2015)

I think we need to distinguish between full preterism and hyper-preterism.
Full preterism is an optimistic eschatology.
Don’t think I can say the same thing about hyper-preterism, which has led some right out of Christianity

I know there is nothing wrong with thinking and discussing such topics, but the truth is, we will not know until the Lord returns.

2Ti_2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I believe modern Preterism could include "Partial Preterism", of which some of the views appear to be borderline Full Preterism but fall just within the realm of orthodoxy.

Modern Preterism Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology

MODERN PRETERISM (MP) -
A) Umbrella term covering all those who believe that the majority of Bible prophecy was totally fulfilled in the early centuries of the Christian era. Determined by looking at where authors find a "transition" from the past to the future using the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24/25 and the Apocalypse of John. Differs from Full Preterism in that it does not make the Parousia, the General Judgment, nor the General Resurrection events solely of the past.
B) According to known literature, this class emerged during the Reformation or Counter Reformation and can be seen in a fully developed form at the beginning of the 17th century in the writings of the Jesuit Alcasar -- although many believe that the "Preterist Assumption" seen throughout church history reveals the ancient and medieval equivalents of the Modern Preterist view. (perhaps systematized the most consistenty in 310 by Eusebius in "Theophany").
C) Teaches that the bulk of "end times" prophecy has sole application to ancient Israel, but that some regards the "last day" -- sometimes that "end" being personal, not global, in nature. Transitions somewhere in Matthew 25, or near the end of the Apocalypse of John.


Firmin Abauzit
NOT A FULL PRETERIST / LATER RECANTED HIS POSITION ON APOCALYPSE:


"Abauzit left behind him some writings, chiefly theological. Of these the principal was, an " Essay upon the Apocalypse," written to show that the canonical authority of the book of Revelation was doubtful, and to apply the predictions to the destruction of Jerusalem. This work was sent by the author to Dr. Twells, in London, who translated it from French into English, and added a refutation,- with which Abauzit was so well satisfied, that he desired his friend in Holland to stop an intended impression."


  • 1730: An Historical Discourse on the Apocalypse "Abauzit left behind him some writings, chiefly theological. Of these the principal was, an "Essay upon the Apocalypse," written to show that the canonical authority of the book of Revelation was doubtful, and to apply the predictions to the destruction of Jerusalem. This work was sent by the author to Dr. Twells, in London, who translated it from French into English, and added a refutation, - with which Abauzit was so well satisfied, that he desired his friend in Holland to stop an intended impression." (Lange)

===========================

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.


Full preterism
Full preterism differs from partial preterism in that full preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment.[40][page needed] Other names of full preterism include:

  • preterism (because the term itself means "past")
  • consistent preterism
  • true preterism
  • hyper-preterism (a pejorative term used by opponents of preterists)
  • pantelism. (The term "pantelism" comes from two Greek roots: παν (pan), "everything", and τελ- (tel-), referring to completion).
  • Covenant Eschatology
  • Fulfilled Eschatology[41]
V. Additional Rules
Preterism - Wikipedia

Full preterists argue that a literal reading of Matthew 16:28 (where Jesus tells the disciples that some of them will not taste death until they see him coming in his kingdom)[42] places the second coming in the first century. This precludes a physical second coming of Christ. Instead, the second coming is symbolic of a "judgment" against Jerusalem, said to have taken place with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70.[43]
For this reason, some people[which?] also call full preterism "the AD 70 Doctrine."[44] R. C. Sproul says of full preterist Max R. King, of Ohio; "For this schema to work, the traditional idea of resurrection must be replaced with a metaphorical idea of resurrection".[45]

Detractors of full preterism often refer to the school as hyper-preterism.[46]
Many[quantify] evangelicals regard full preterism as outside of Christian orthodoxy.
==============================
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Biblical Minimalism and "The History of Preterism" | Gary DeMar | Partial Preterism


A "Shred of Evidence" from the Didache


The Didache, also known as "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles," is probably the oldest surviving extant piece of non-canonical literature. It claims to have been written by the twelve apostles, but this cannot be proved. While the full text of the Didache was not rediscovered until 1873, there are references to it in Clement of Alexandria's Miscellanies,8 Eusebius’s Ecclesiastical History,9 and Athanasius’s Festal Letter.10 The Didache quotes five verses from Matthew 24 (4, 10, 11, 24, 30). The crucial time text of Matthew 24:34 ("this generation will not pass away") is not quoted, but Matthew 24:30 is: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven" (16.7–8). The verses are obviously used to describe future events. Of course, if the Didache was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, then preterists have their "shred of evidence" that Ice says does not exist. Sure enough, a number of scholars believe that the Didache was composed before A.D. 70. In the authoritative work The Apostolic Fathers, we read the following:

A remarkably wide range of dates, extending from before A.D. 50 to the third century or later, has been proposed for this document. . . . The Didache may have been put into its present form as late as 150, though a date considerably closer to the end of the first century seems more plausible. The materials from which it was composed, however, reflect the state of the church at an even earlier time. The relative simplicity of the prayers, the continuing concern to differentiate Christian practice from Jewish rituals (8.1), and in particular the form of church structure--note the twofold structure of bishops and deacons (cf. Phil. 1:1) and the continued existence of traveling apostles and prophets alongside a resident ministry--reflect a time closer to that of Paul and James (who died in the 60s) than Ignatius (who died sometime after 110).11

The definitive work on the Didache was written by the French Canadian J.-P. Audet who concluded "that it was composed, almost certainly in Antioch, between 50 and 70."12 In an earlier edition of The Apostolic Fathers we read a similar conclusion: "In his very thorough commentary J.-P. Audet suggests about A.D. 70, and he is not likely to be off by more than a decade in either direction."13 Even liberal scholars, who tend to date all New Testament documents late, acknowledge the evidence for an early date for the Didache. For example, Stephen J. Patterson comments that the trend is to date the document early, "at least by the end of the first century or the beginning of the second, and in the case of Jean-P. Audet, as early as 50–70 C.E."14 So then, if the Didache was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, as a number of scholars suggest, then its use of Matthew 24 to describe events that were yet to take place, including the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 24:30), makes perfect sense given a preterist interpretation of the Olivet
=============================


A "Shred of Evidence" from James the Brother of Jesus


In Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, written in the fourth century, we learn of an incident that lead to the martyrdom of James the brother of Jesus. The original story comes from the second-century historian Hegesippus who wrote his notes on the history of the church between A.D. 165 and 175. When James was called on by a group of Scribes and Pharisees to set the what they believed was the truth of the claimed Messiahship of Jesus, Hegesippus reports James as stating that Jesus "is about to come on the clouds of heaven."15 Hegesippus is quoting what "James the Just" said to a group of Scribes and Pharisees who believed that people were "led astray after Jesus was crucified": "Why do you ask me respecting Jesus the Son of Man? He is now sitting in the heavens, on the right hand of great Power, and is about to come on the clouds of heaven."16

The Greek word mellow, "about to," "communicates a sense of immediacy."17 "If the author had not wished to stress the immediate aspect of Christ's coming, he could still have stressed the certainty of Christ's coming with erketai, thereby omitting the immediate factor."18 After hearing James' obvious allusion to Matthew 26:64, the officials of the temple cast him down from the "wing of the temple" and later stoned him and beat out his brains with a club. "Immediately after this," Hegesippus writes, "Vespasian invaded and took Judea."19 James the brother of Jesus believed that Jesus' coming was "about to take place." Hegessipus identifies the coming of Jesus "on the clouds of heaven" with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.


A "Shred of Evidence" from 1 Clement

Clement (A.D. 30–100), also known as Clemens Romanus to distinguish him from Clement of Alexandria who died in the third century, is noted for his letter to the Corinthians (1 Clement). The letter is commonly dated around A.D. 96, but there is good reason to date it earlier. John A. T. Robinson is sympathetic to George Edmundson's evidence that 1 Clement "was written in the early months of 70."20 The strongest argument for an early A.D. 70 date is that Clement states that temple sacrifices were being offered in Jerusalem at the time of its writing. This means the temple, which was destroyed in late A.D. 70, was still standing when Clement wrote his letter:

Not in every place, brethren, are the continual daily sacrifices offered, or the freewill offerings, or the sin offerings or the trespass offerings, but in Jerusalem alone. And even there the offering is not made in every place, but before the sanctuary in the court of the altar; and this too through the high-priest and the aforesaid ministers (41.2).

To give further support for an early A.D. 70 date is Clement's comments about what was taking place in "our generation," specifically the martyrdom of Peter and Paul. Keep in mind that Clement was born around A.D. 30 and would have been forty years old in A.D. 70, making him a part of the "this generation" of Matthew 24:34:

But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience (5.1–17. Emphasis added.).

Remember Ice’s criterion for establishing preterism in the first century: All we need is "a shred of evidence." There are a couple of items in this section of Clement’s letter that point to a pre-A.D. 70 fulfillment. As opposed to "ancient examples" to make his case, Clement instead dwells on "the most recent spiritual heroes," in this case, Peter and Paul who "suffered martyrdom" during the Neronic persecutions in the 60s. These are "noble examples furnished in our own generation," Clement writes. Jesus predicted in the presence of Peter: "They will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you. . ." (Matt. 24:9; cf. John 21:18–19).

Of Paul, Clement writes, "After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west." It was Paul's plan to go to Spain (Rom. 14:24, 28). Compare this statement to what Jesus says in Matthew 24:14, a verse that LaHaye and Ice maintain has not been fulfilled.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come."

Clement, following the language of Jesus and Paul, states that the "whole world" (kosmos) had been "taught righteousness." Paul writes to the Romans that their "faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world [kosmos]" (Rom. 1:8). At the end of Romans we read that the gospel "has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith" (16:26). To the Colossians we learn that, according to Paul, the gospel "was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister" (Col. 1:23; cf. 1:6 [kosmos]).


Conclusion

Ice and LaHaye get off on the wrong foot in their analysis of preterism. The historical argument is a death blow, or to use Mark Hitchcock's metaphor from his chapter on the dating of Revelation, "A Stake in the Heart" to their brand of futurism. The earliest historical sources, the Didache, the testimony of James, the brother of Jesus, and 1 Clement demonstrate that preterism's history is a first-century history.

As time and opportunity permit, I will deal with Ice's other claims on the history of preterism even though they are rather inconsequential to the debate. Ice leaves out so many outstanding preterists that one wonders if he's trying to hide something from his mostly dispensational audience.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
radical preterism says the resurrection is past.
Which Paul said was a heresy.
Worth reading.
The Menace of Radical Preterism
I actually have a thread on that........
[I may create one on this board because of the controversial nature of it.]
2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"

2 Timothy 2:18
who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
and they are subverting<396> the of-some<5100> faith.
========================
Another commentary.......I will have to look at this more closely......

What About Hymenaeus and Philetus | Study Archive

What About Hymenaeus and Philetus
By Ward Fenley

"Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some." 2 Tim 2:17,18
Can someone give me a thoroughly reformed, scriptural meaning of what Hymenaeus and Philetus said about the resurrection? Wouldn't the Ephesians know of a spiritual resurrection? Doesn't it imply a physical resurrection? I am a partial preterist, but many new things that I have learned are drawing me towards the full preterist. This is about the only road block I can think of to believing the full preterist view. It would answer my questions about the resurrection. Also, any thoughts on what the millenium in the full preterist view was? I believe it is now, but I would like fully reformed, scriptural thoughts on this.
=============

Believe me, I shared your sentiments. My main concern was not losing friends or popularity. My main concern was not even that the "orthodox" church has not believed in full preterism. My main concern was 2 Tim 2:17,18. Because if I am a full preterist and the resurrection has not happened, then I am a heretic and should be delivered unto Satan and excommunicated from Christian fellowship. That is really hard to take especially considering the fact that the doctrines of grace have already brought enough alienation. So please know that I struggled (and sometimes still do) with that.

However, as those who deny the church of Rome and her impositions upon her adherents concerning the interpretation of Scripture, we as believers in sola Scriptura must test the "church" and use the conscience God has given us. Of course I know guys like Jim Jones and David Koresh claimed to do that too. But does that mean we flock to Rome? Of course I know you do not believe that, since you are a believer in the reformed doctrines of grace.

So then, the question is, here we are-two believers in sovereign grace desiring earnestly to search the Scriptures, and our conscience tells us that the apostles and Christ were not mistaken. Our conscience sees the earnest expectation of Paul. Our conscience sees that Paul promised the church of Corinth under divine inspiration, "We shall not all sleep."

Our conscience tells us to question: How would the church of Corinth have taken that statement? Or the church of Thessalonica for that matter. How did the seven churches in Asia interpret shortly, quickly, at hand, etc.?

At this point my conscience also says, So why were Hymenaeus and Philetus excommunicated? Before I ask that, I have to ask myself the question: Had the resurrection happened yet? No, of course not. Second, I had to ask, why did not Paul correct the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2:1-3 by saying "Look you guys, if the coming of Christ took place and the resurrection happened (according to the orthodox views of the 20th century), there would be bodies flying out of the graves etc. I know you have thought about this. But how could Hymenaeus and Philetus be so stupid to say the resurrection had passed if everyone's conception of resurrection was bodies flying out of graves? Seriously. Then I had to ask the question, what was the real reason they were "overthrowing the faith of some"? I believe the answer lies in the fact that the resurrection was inseparable from the destruction of the Jewish Temple.

Christ clearly said that that generation would not pass away until every stone was thrown down and all prophecy was fulfilled:

Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. {21} Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. {22} For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which is about to be revealed in us.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

So what Hymenaeus and Phil were doing was negating the words of Christ and nullifying other VERY important prophecies that had to take place before that day would come (2 Thess 2:1-12). Also interesting is the fact that in 2 Thess 2, the KJV at hand is wrong. It is not the word AT HAND but literally means "has come." There were rumors that Christ had come. So now we have in two places (if their interpretation of the coming and resurrection was twentieth century orthodoxy) that crazy lunatics were trying to say the resurrection and coming had taken place. Well, quite honestly, I think these guys were smart enough to realize that no one would buy that tale unless they were seeing the physical body of Christ and graves popping open. But Russ, I believe they were taught and entirely different view of the kingdom/resurrection:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Christ knew exactly what the Pharisees were asking. They were asking exactly the same thing the apostles asked in Acts 1:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?

Everyone was asking the same question that people are still asking today: When is the kingdom going to come?

Well, check out this comparison:

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions (Greek mone=dwelling places): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

compare with:

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and NOT unto the world?
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (Greek-mone=mansion or dwelling place) with him.

First, Judas knew that Christ said the kingdom would not be obvious but that His people would know it. So naturally he asks Jesus: How will you do this? Christ response is crucial. He was telling Judas that those in whom He would come to dwell were the mansions in the Father's house. Through the Spirit, the deposit of their Inheritance (Christ) the first century church was being built up this spiritual house:

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are being built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable
to God by Jesus Christ.

This building up of the house was the "preparing a place for them" of John 14:2-3. The place was the house or Temple of God that was being built. That house consisted of many dwelling places. At the parousia, Christ came to indwell that house. They then became one with their Husband and dwelt in Him and He in them:

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

I always used to be confused about this verse:

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

I thought that the NC church was the Temple:

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

But then Revelation says:

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Well Christ's words unify it. His bride is in Him (in Christ) and He is IN His bride. We now KNOW Him as they were, and we are, fully known.

I hope this helps. Check out these articles and let me know what you think:

Ward Fenley

==========
What do YOU think ?

Comments
Another demonstration of preterists' problems with typology. There were two natural events in the history of OT, natural Israel that were TYPES of the two first-century resurrections of 1 Cor. 15:23. First, the safe emergence of natural Israel from the Red Sea typified the safe emergence of Christ from the tomb in AD 30. Second, the return from Babylon of ONLY the faithful remnant of natural Israel to the natural promised land typified the resurrection of ONLY the dead in Christ at his parousia on the last day of the true first century. "The rest of the dead" -- those NOT in Christ (Rev. 20:5) -- "lived not again" until the future resurrection (Rev. 20:7-15). Christ's parousia was the covenanted (Gen. 9:11,5), gracious, SPIRITUAL judgment of the world that fulfilled the merciless, NATURAL judgment of the world by the flood on the last day of Noah's last 100 pre-flood years.

Comments
Duped Christian Zionists claim that God's special relationship with OT, natural Israel did not end forever after the appearance of Christ, the true, spiritual and eternal Israel. Futuristic Zionists believe that relationship will be resumed during an imminent Jewish millennium. Preteristic Zionists believe that relationship continued during a 40-year Jewish millennium (AD 30-70). Both beliefs are false and demeaning.

Comments
Yes! I have heard objections about this being, in part, an argument from silence, but what a silence it is! Ask any musician, by the way, about the significance of silences.

Comments
Would someone please show me where Paul calls H & P heretics? While it might be inferred from scripture that they were causing divisions in the church, this charge is not made regarding them. To be sure, they were teaching error and it is rather obvious that their motive was to undermine the teaching of the apostles. That does not describe any preterist I know and I find it unacceptable for those who disagree to foment strife and divisions because they understand scripture differently. Any of us can be wrong in our understanding of scripture (in fact, we all are)but that does not make us guilty of a party spirit (heresy).

Comments
I AM A FULL PRETERIST, reading some of the comments below really distresses me but it is a classic case of the blind leading the blind. I thank the Lord for the delete button on my computer, too bad it is only one level of deletion and cant remove the full cancerous tumor of unbelief. Get back in your bibles people, stop listening to movies and TV, learn for yourselves. The study was clear and concise, it made me look at a few more passages of scripture that I hadnt seen before. Always eager to learn. William

Comments
William: Don't get so upset. Instead, try to understand that the natural man called Israel and his natural offspring were merely TYPES of Christ and his spiritual offspring (the church). When the latter, the true, spiritual and eternal Israel, appeared in the spring of AD 30, the former, the merely typifying, natural and temporary Israel, PASSED AWAY FOREVER in the sight of God. You're making the same mistake the dispensationalists make.

Comments
Jesus said: You must be born again before you can see the kingdom of heaven...

Comments
The Bible is a Holy Book. It is a spiritual book, not a history book.

Comments:

I clicked on Hymenaeus and Philetus because I will be preaching on the effects of this kind of influence that effects the Church today and God's people. This a contrast to where Paul told Timothy to be strong in God's favor (grace) that others will be able to recognize how so many can be turned from the faith. Only the faithful will be able to teach others about this kind of faith distraction. Mark Ferguson mf1shalom@yahoo.com

Your Comments:

I have often wondered what Matthew 10:23 (you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes) and Matthew 16:28 (Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom) means in relation to the last days?

Your Comments:

I appreciate this article ward, i watch your videos on youtube keep up the good work. peace and God Bless

Your Comments:

Dave Curtis has addressed these verses in his taped messages. Basically he said that Hymenaeus and Phil were saying that the resurrection had occurred and this while the temple was still standing and in use also the old covenant was still being observed. The Christians knew the resurrection was to occur at the last day or the beginning of the new heaven and earth so the rumor of the resurrection occurring was devastating to the faith of some. They knew it wasn't a physical event because people weren't popping up out of the ground and so they understood the spiritual implications of the resurrection, for it being spiritual and therefore not a visible event. So with being told that the resurrection had passed, they could see that the temple still stood and taken together, it would have meant that the new heavens and earth was being mixed with the age of the old covenant or if you will, a mixing of law and grace. I can only imagine how they felt, here their persecutors were still around to harass them and worse in the new heavens and earth! It would have been disheartening to say the least. You can google bbc.com and find his tapes. In Christ, Jim

Your Comments:

I have often wondered what Matthew 10:23 (you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes) and Matthew 16:28 (Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom) means in relation to the last days?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,118
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
hyper preterist position that the New Covenant didn't really come into maturity until AD70 (despite the fact that Christians had already been given access to the "holiest of all" 40 years prior -- cf. Hebrews 10:19-22) results in a different gospel message than that originally received from the pen of Inspiration. At Calvary, Jesus said "It is finished". This statement was confirmed by the tearing of the veil of separation in Herod's temple. To teach that access into the holiest of all is based on something other than Calvary is a horrible error. There are many other examples of AD70 becoming a primary focal point, outshining the glory revealed in the Sacrifice of the Lamb. The AD70 Storyline is Fundamentally Different from Historical Christianity's clear and united focus on Calvary as the definitive statement of the faith. [Full Preterist Response: "I categorically state that the physical object of the cross, wood and fiber, is not worthy of the love and adoration of Christians."]

WHAT IS "HYPER" PRETERISM?
IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO TAKE PRETERISM TOO FAR?


"Hyper" Preterism is defined here as that form of "fulfillment eschatology" which goes too far in declaring AD70 prophetic fulfillment and/or completion. In many cases, this threshold is reached by declaring that the shadows and types which were given to point to the Eschaton were actually the fulfillments themselves. One need not be a "Full Preterist" to embrace aspects of Hyper Preterism ; however, Full Preterist systems consistently apply Hyper Preterism to all areas of doctrine. Therefore, one could consider Full Preterism to be "Consistently Hyper Preterism", "Fully Hyper Preterism" or "Systematic Hyper Preterism". The point being that Full Preterism is actually systematized Hyper Preterism... and is ever so much dangerous than the more inconsistent forms of Preterism, or Historicist and Futurist systems which may advocate particular hyper preterist doctrines.

    • Larry Siegle: "There are three aspects to the events of A.D. 70 that deserve clarification in order to achieve a proper balance in our understanding of exactly what happened in the first-century. There are those who draw conclusions that are not necessarily the logical implications and therefore takes a person down a very long and dark pathway into error in their understanding of the Scriptures. Unless one is able to properly discern what “ended” in A.D. 70, in contrast with what “began” and therefore what “remains” his conclusions will be to take an extreme position concerning the truth."
isn't that backwards?

it's not that the NC didn't take effect until 70AD, eg. Saint Peter received the vision of all foods clean 28 years earlier

it's all about the OC, the OC wasn't abolished until 70AD, Judea had one full Biblical generation of 40 years to repent?
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
LittleLambofJesus said:
On another thread, there was this link mentioning F P vs H P.
I have never heard much of H P
Discuss.......

Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem


Discussion on Consistent Preterism and the Impact of AD70 as the Terminal Date (2015)

I think we need to distinguish between full preterism and hyper-preterism.
Full preterism is an optimistic eschatology.
Don’t think I can say the same thing about hyper-preterism, which has led some right out of Christianity
I know there is nothing wrong with thinking and discussing such topics, but the truth is, we will not know until the Lord returns.

2Ti_2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Why should we wait for that? We have the Bible to tell us.........
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,118
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why should we wait for that? We have the Bible to tell us.........
Which is debated by many differing opinions. What Jesus exhorts us to do regarding his return is to watch and be about the business of the Kingdom.
Martin Luther was asked what he would do if he knew Jesus was going to return tomorrow? He answered, "Continue planting my tree."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
LittleLambofJesus said:
On another thread, there was this link mentioning F P vs H P.
I have never heard much of H P
Discuss.......

Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem


Discussion on Consistent Preterism and the Impact of AD70 as the Terminal Date (2015)

I think we need to distinguish between full preterism and hyper-preterism.
Full preterism is an optimistic eschatology.
Don’t think I can say the same thing about hyper-preterism, which has led some right out of Christianity
AlexDTX said:
I know there is nothing wrong with thinking and discussing such topics, but the truth is, we will not know until the Lord returns.

2Ti_2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
LittleLambofJesus said:
Why should we wait for that? We have the Bible to tell us........
Which is debated by many differing opinions. What Jesus exhorts us to do regarding his return is to watch and be about the business of the Kingdom.
Martin Luther was asked what he would do if he knew Jesus was going to return tomorrow? He answered, "Continue planting my tree."
Hello. CF is a forum for discussions and/or debates on a myriad of topics, as is also this thread.......

Please keep to the topic of the thread...............
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
LittleLambofJesus said:
Why should we wait for that? We have the Bible to tell us.........
sincere biblical inquiry is bible study is studying the scriptures daily is good?
Indeed. That is what I have read also.

John 5:39 "Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

Acts 17:
10As soon as night had fallen, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true. 12As a result, many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men.
Acts 18:28
for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

2 Peter 3:16 As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hello. CF is a forum for discussions and/or debates on a myriad of topics, as is also this thread.......

Please keep to the topic of the thread...............
Excuse me? How have I gone off topic? I said we will not know. That was my 2 cents. CF has many other topics of my interest. Please do not respond further to me. I have no more interest in this topic. I had already expressed my view. If you continue, you will be harassing me and violating CF rules.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
LittleLambofJesus said:
hyper preterist position that the New Covenant didn't really come into maturity until AD70 (despite the fact that Christians had already been given access to the "holiest of all" 40 years prior -- cf. Hebrews 10:19-22) results in a different gospel message than that originally received from the pen of Inspiration. At Calvary, Jesus said "It is finished". This statement was confirmed by the tearing of the veil of separation in Herod's temple. To teach that access into the holiest of all is based on something other than Calvary is a horrible error. There are many other examples of AD70 becoming a primary focal point, outshining the glory revealed in the Sacrifice of the Lamb. The AD70 Storyline is Fundamentally Different from Historical Christianity's clear and united focus on Calvary as the definitive statement of the faith. [Full Preterist Response: "I categorically state that the physical object of the cross, wood and fiber, is not worthy of the love and adoration of Christians."]

WHAT IS "HYPER" PRETERISM?
IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO TAKE PRETERISM TOO FAR?


"Hyper" Preterism is defined here as that form of "fulfillment eschatology" which goes too far in declaring AD70 prophetic fulfillment and/or completion. In many cases, this threshold is reached by declaring that the shadows and types which were given to point to the Eschaton were actually the fulfillments themselves. One need not be a "Full Preterist" to embrace aspects of Hyper Preterism ; however, Full Preterist systems consistently apply Hyper Preterism to all areas of doctrine. Therefore, one could consider Full Preterism to be "Consistently Hyper Preterism", "Fully Hyper Preterism" or "Systematic Hyper Preterism". The point being that Full Preterism is actually systematized Hyper Preterism... and is ever so much dangerous than the more inconsistent forms of Preterism, or Historicist and Futurist systems which may advocate particular hyper preterist doctrines.
isn't that backwards?
it's not that the NC didn't take effect until 70AD, eg. Saint Peter received the vision of all foods clean 28 years earlier
it's all about the OC, the OC wasn't abolished until 70AD, Judea had one full Biblical generation of 40 years to repent?
Indeed. Revelation is also Covenantle....OC Priesthood/Sanctuary vs NC Priesthood/Sanctuary
The veil of the Sanctuary was rent in 2 after Jesus died on the Cross.
Matthew uses "the generation, this one" in Matthew 24:34 inferring that many of those of that 1st century generation of Jews would see His coming in vengeance thru the use of the Roman Army during the Roman/Jewish Wars up to 70AD Jerusalem/Judea.

Here is a little chronology of the birth, death and ascension of our Lord Jesus as is also shown in the Covenantle book of Revelation:

Matthew 1:
21 and she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.’
Luke 2:
7 and she gave birth to her Firstborn, a Son.
She wrapped Him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.[Revelation 12:5?]
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a Son, a male, Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in rod/staff, iron.
Luk 3:23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,

The famous 70AD Jerusalem/Temple discourse:

Matthew 24

3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full consummation<4930> of the Age?
34 Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be passing-away the generation, this-one, till ever all these may be becoming.
=================
The Crucifixion and Ascension of Jesus

John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Acts 1:9 And these things having said — they beholding —He was taken up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight;
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a Son, a male, Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff. And caught away was her Child unto God and His throne,
Revelation 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the ages of the ages. And I am having the keys of the Hades and of the Death.
Then the days of vengeance of Jerusalem 70AD

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.
Revelation 19:2 “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged<1556> on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com,


70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age

(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history


302660_c2760f5cc7d57e7088338ce451af705b.jpg



3amng4.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums