Parable of cloth and wineskins

[Winken]

What does this mean?

“And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."

[And Jesus said (to the Apostles), can the Bride of Christ mourn as long as the Bridegroom (Christ) is with them, here, now? A time will come when Christ is taken away (the crucifixion), then they will fast (mourn). No one patches the newly presented testimony of Grace into the Law, for that simple "patch" will tear away from the Law, and a worse tear becomes evident. Neither is the testimony of Grace through Faith merged with the Law. If it is, the mixture (Grace with Law) bursts and the totality of the entire revelation is torn asunder. But the revelation of Grace rightly divided from the Law (2 Timothy 2:15, KJV), leaves the two separate, each to its own.]

 

[HereIStand]

I would see it as... the "new wine" is the Gospel message, and Christ Himself. Fasting in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah (or the "old wineskins") was no longer necessary. During the life of Christ, fellowship with Him and participation in His ministry was more important than fasting for the disciples.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I would see it as... the "new wine" is the Gospel message, and Christ Himself. Fasting in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah (or the "old wineskins") was no longer necessary. During the life of Christ, fellowship with Him and participation in His ministry was more important than fasting for the disciples.

Why then would Jesus parable contain the words 'the old wine is better?'

 

[chevyontheriver]

The entire surrounding chapters have something to do with Jesus' disciples, so the context here must also be about them. Here is the best explanation I have read so far:

New Wine and Old Wineskins

Luke 5:39, "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good.'"

 

[Steve Petersen]

Luke 5:39, "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good.'"

It kind of deflates the idea that the new wine is the New Covenant. Why would anyone want the old after tasting the new? Yet we are told 'the old is better.'

 

[Soyeong]

That's the same one earlier in the thread.

Well, then consider the recommendation seconded.

 

[HereIStand]

Why then would Jesus parable contain the words 'the old wine is better?'

That's in Luke. The OP addressed the passage from Matthew. I'll study the Luke passage. Off hand, it could be read the opposite way. Old wine is "better" for the Pharisees because they reject the new wine of the Gospel.

 

[Apex]

A wedding feast was an occasion for wearing special clothes (Matt. 22:11–14) and drinking wine (John 2:1–11). These two parables are quite natural in this context - especially since these are also symbols of eschatological salvation which I believe Jesus is referencing. Matthew (who copied from Mark 2) mentions the criticism of the Pharisees (about fasting) because it showed that John’s disciples and the Pharisees were both meticulous in keeping the ceremonial law. The two illustrations effectively make the point that Jesus was not simply bringing in a revised version of Judaism. What Jesus was teaching could not be contained within the accepted Jewish system. Any attempt to place Christians within the limits of the old religion would be to invite disaster. The explosive dynamic of the new era must break out of the confines of legalism and asceticism to be successful.

I personally believe this speaks to the relationship Christians have with the Mosaic law. I take a modified Lutheran view on this topic. This means I believe the Mosaic law is basically confined to the old era that has come to its fulfillment in Christ. It is no longer directly applicable to believers who live in the new era.

 

[DeerGlow]

That's in Luke. The OP addressed the passage from Matthew. I'll study the Luke passage. Off hand, it could be read the opposite way. Old wine is "better" for the Pharisees because they reject the new wine of the Gospel.

Parallels are okay I just want to understand what they say.

 

[HereIStand]

That's in Luke. The OP addressed the passage from Matthew. I'll study the Luke passage. Off hand, it could be read the opposite way. Old wine is "better" for the Pharisees because they reject the new wine of the Gospel.

On second thought, I'm wrong,

So Christ would train up his followers gradually to the discipline of his family; for no man, having drank old wine, will of a sudden, straightway, desire new, or relish it, but will say, The old is better, because he has been used to it, v. 39. The disciples will be tempted to think their old way of living better, till they are by degrees trained up to this way whereunto they are called. Or, turn it the other way: "Let them be accustomed awhile to religious exercises, and then they will abound in them as much as you do: but we must not be too hasty with them.’’ Calvin takes it as an admonition to the Pharisees not to boast of their fasting, and the noise and show they made with it, nor to despise his disciples because they did not in like manner signalize themselves; for the profession the Pharisees made was indeed pompous and gay, like new wine that is brisk and sparkling, whereas all wise men say, The old is better; for, though it does not give its colour so well in the cup, yet it is more warming in the stomach and more wholesome. Christ’s disciples, though they had not so much of the form of godliness, had more of the power of it.
Luke 5 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

 

[HereIStand]

Parallels are okay I just want to understand what they say.

It's good that you are trying to understand. (See my new post.) I've never found the Parables all that easy. I'm reminded of a time a guy in church thanked the Lord (in prayer) for being "so clear." The purpose of Christ life, death, and resurrection are clear. His words seem less so.

 

[Steve Petersen]

It's good that you are trying to understand. (See my new post.) I've never found the Parables all that easy. I'm reminded of a time a guy in church thanked the Lord (in prayer) for being "so clear." The purpose of Christ life, death, and resurrection are clear. His words seem less so.

Let me recommend the book 'The Parable: Jewish Tradition and Christian Interpretation' by Dr. Brad Young.

The Parables: Jewish Tradition and Christian Interpretation: Brad Young: 9781565632448: Amazon.com: Books

He says repeatedly that the majority of parables in the Jewish world were terse and made only ONE specific point.

 

[HereIStand]

Let me recommend the book 'The Parable: Jewish Tradition and Christian Interpretation' by Dr. Brad Young.

The Parables: Jewish Tradition and Christian Interpretation: Brad Young: 9781565632448: Amazon.com: Books

He says repeatedly that the majority of parables in the Jewish world were terse and made only ONE specific point.

Thank you. I've read some of Kenneth Bailey's Poet and Peasant, which focuses on the parables in Luke. It's good, but it more or less assumes knowledge of New Testament Greek. However, I was able to generally follow parts of it.

As helpful as understanding the cultural background of the time of Christ, it can sometimes feel like cultural studies. Instead of, how should this parable be heard today (or from now on), rather than isolated to the culture during the life of Christ.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Let me recommend the book 'The Parable: Jewish Tradition and Christian Interpretation' by Dr. Brad Young.

The Parables: Jewish Tradition and Christian Interpretation: Brad Young: 9781565632448: Amazon.com: Books

He says repeatedly that the majority of parables in the Jewish world were terse and made only ONE specific point.

Joachim Jeremias and C. H. Dodd made that same point. I like to paraphrase it as 'Parables have punchlines'.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It kind of deflates the idea that the new wine is the New Covenant. Why would anyone want the old after tasting the new? Yet we are told 'the old is better.'

It's a perplexing parable. Everyone assumes they know what it means, that new is automatically better than old, but then we have those pesky words of Jesus to contend with.

 

[Jan001]

What does this mean?

“And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

How do the examples of patches and new wine in old skins relate to the disciples fasting or not?

Old garments and old wineskins is a reference to the first covenant.
Unshrunk cloth and fresh/new wineskins is a reference to Jesus' new covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. rsv​

 

[SpiritRehab]

What does this mean?

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

How do the examples of patches and new wine in old skins relate to the disciples fasting or not?

Fasting occurs naturally when one is Mourning. And so Fasting for Prayer, is a sign of mourning to God, that the help you ask for is not a frivilous thought, but a desperate need.

Also, Fasting is not only of Food, but of all distractions which satisfy the will of the flesh: sex, parties, etc. So Fasting helps you to reject temptation and cry out to Yahowah in Faith.

A new wine skin can stretch and new wine, is able to ferment. The fermentation process releases gasses, which stretch the wine skin.

An old wine skin has already stretched from new wine fermenting into old wine inside it.

If you put new wine, in an old wine skin, the wine skin will burst as the new wine ferments and the wine will spill out.

This means if you want Salvation, you must receive the Holy Spirit and be willing to change, to abandon your ways and adopt His ways.

If you are not willing to change, He will eventually leave you and you will be spiritually as Judas was physically. Burst open and dead.

This is not related to mourning & fasting, as that was an answer to a question asked of Yahoshua, while He was talking about Salvation. The wine skins passage is a continuation of what Yahoshua was teaching in verse 12 & 13.

2 And Jesus having heard, said to them, `They who are whole have no need of a physician, but they who are ill;
13 but having gone, learn ye what is, 'Kindness I will, and not sacrifice,' for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

PLEASE, develop a relationship with Yahowah and ask Him your Questions, in the name of Yahoshua and He will answer you by His Holy Spirit.

PLEASE commit yourself to becoming a Disciple under the Holy Spirit and He will call you to your Work.

If you try to serve His kingdom, without His education nor calling, you will unknowingly be serving one of the Devil's many counterfeit Assemblies. The Church, which is Circe the Demoness.

 

[Beautyinsteadofashes]

The entire surrounding chapters have something to do with Jesus' disciples, so the context here must also be about them. Here is the best explanation I have read so far:

New Wine and Old Wineskins

Back then they put wine in pouches made from animal skins. When these patches were new, they would hold the wine. But if you continually poor new wine into the same pouch it eventually bursts. I believe the Wineskins represent the deciples minds and the new wine represents the teachings of Jesus. Their minds were full of knowledge already, their Wineskins were full. They needed to be open to Jesus' teaching. They had much to learn, but they needed not to mourn because he was still with them. The wedding and bridegroom part I presume is an analogy. If the groom is there and the wedding is still on, there is no reason to be upset. If the groom vanishes...no wedding, and now you can be upset. Jesus was the groom, and he was still there.
Hope this helps deerglow and not confuses you more

 

[DeerGlow]

Back then they put wine in pouches made from animal skins. When these patches were new, they would hold the wine. But if you continually poor new wine into the same pouch it eventually bursts. I believe the Wineskins represent the deciples minds and the new wine represents the teachings of Jesus. Their minds were full of knowledge already, their Wineskins were full. They needed to be open to Jesus' teaching. They had much to learn, but they needed not to mourn because he was still with them. The wedding and bridegroom part I presume is an analogy. If the groom is there and the wedding is still on, there is no reason to be upset. If the groom vanishes...no wedding, and now you can be upset. Jesus was the groom, and he was still there.
Hope this helps deerglow and not confuses you more

Honestly I feel like a lot of people have been explaining the why wineskins burst and the patch doesn't match. I think I get the physical level but what's the concept is my question. I'm still trying to let the explanations I've heard sink in. Like what everything means and represents.

 

[Steve Petersen]

New garment = previously uneducated students
Old garment = previously educated students
Patch = teaching
New wineskins = previously uneducated students
Old wineskins = previously educated students
New wine = new teaching
Old wine = previous teaching