Parable of cloth and wineskins

DeerGlow

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What does this mean?

“And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

How do the examples of patches and new wine in old skins relate to the disciples fasting or not?
 

faroukfarouk

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What does this mean?

“And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

How do the examples of patches and new wine in old skins relate to the disciples fasting or not?
It refers to the fact that the Lord was with them, so fasting was not necessary.
 
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Saint Beloved

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It was (might still be) a common Jewish practice to tear clothing and abstain from food and sometimes drink as an outward sign of being in mourning, you don't feast when you're sad only when happy. When Jesus was around they feasted, now He's not we should be in a mourning mood not feasting because we will feast again whe He returns.
To my limited understanding ^^^

I'd recommend reading a commentary along side your daily bible reading. My dad uses William Barclay's updated book by book series of the New Testament it's in paperback and ebook possibly even audiobook by now or bible gateway dot com might have built in commentaries. Give you extra insight!
 
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DeerGlow

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It was (might still be) a common Jewish practice to tear clothing and abstain from food and sometimes drink as an outward sign of being in mourning, you don't feast when you're sad only when happy. When Jesus was around they feasted, now He's not we should be in a mourning mood not feasting because we will feast again whe He returns.
To my limited understanding ^^^

I'd recommend reading a commentary along side your daily bible reading. My dad uses William Barclay's updated book by book series of the New Testament it's in paperback and ebook possibly even audiobook by now or bible gateway dot com might have built in commentaries. Give you extra insight!
Fasting speaks of absence and even mourning. The Lord was with them, however, so they could rejoice.

So like Jesus is the New and will not mix with the Old (fasting) so while he's there don't do the old with the new?
 
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faroukfarouk

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So like Jesus is the New and will not mix with the Old (fasting) so while he's there don't do the old with the new?
Maybe this is some of the underlying thinking.

If a long lost relative arrived, you would have a welcome home atmosphere, not mourning.
 
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Steve Petersen

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What does this mean?

“And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

How do the examples of patches and new wine in old skins relate to the disciples fasting or not?

The entire surrounding chapters have something to do with Jesus' disciples, so the context here must also be about them. Here is the best explanation I have read so far:

New Wine and Old Wineskins
 
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DeerGlow

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The entire surrounding chapters have something to do with Jesus' disciples, so the context here must also be about them. Here is the best explanation I have read so far:

New Wine and Old Wineskins

Whew that was hard to read. So.... the patch and new wine is the Torah.... and the old are the Pharisees who love their own ways and cannot take it in, the disciples are new and can take it in?
 
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Steve Petersen

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Whew that was hard to read. So.... the patch and new wine is the Torah.... and the old are the Pharisees who love their own ways and cannot take it in, the disciples are new and can take it in?

The patch is actually the teaching. No one tries to apply new teaching to students who have already been taught another understanding.
 
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DeerGlow

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The patch is actually the teaching. No one tries to apply new teaching to students who have already been taught another understanding.

I think I get it. How could they get saved if they don't get the new teaching though?
 
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Saint Beloved

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The entire surrounding chapters have something to do with Jesus' disciples, so the context here must also be about them. Here is the best explanation I have read so far:

New Wine and Old Wineskins

You will never know how thankful I am for you saying this - so happy you have made my night, week, month!
So many people....
Still
Do
Not
Get
This.
And make fun of me for it.
 
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DeerGlow

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You will never know how thankful I am for you saying this - so happy you have made my night, week, month!
So many people....
Still
Do
Not
Get
This.
And make fun of me for it.
It is hard to understand though. Making fun of is uncalled for but it's tough.
 
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John 1720

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Dear Deerglow,
I think you need a bit more context to understand what Jesus is saying. Here is what immediately precedes that and is part of the story.
Matthew the Tax Collector in Matthew 9:9-14
(Mark 2:13–17; Luke 5:27–32 )

  • As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, “Follow Me.” So he arose and followed Him.
  • Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
  • When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
  • Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?”
So this is the order - I will use capital "L" for God's Law and little "l" for self-righteous or man-made interpretive law of the Pharisees.
  1. Preceding all this Jesus heals a paralytic and many are marveling, including tax collectors and sinners.
  2. Jesus calls Matthew, a tax collector and sinner, to follow Him.
  3. Matthew must have had many tax collector and sinning friends like he was.
  4. The Pharisees were indignant that Jesus, who fulfilled the Law, would break their law and sit with sinners. In other words the Pharisees were self-righteous according to the law.
  5. He admonishes them didactically that the Law of God cares about those sick with sin and blind to sin and desires them to repent or turn to Him in order to be healed and join themselves in love to God. Then backs it up with Scripture ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ The rest of the verse is just as poignant to what I just stated. Hosea 6:6
  6. But the disciples of John, who were attempting to follow the true Law of God in their own strength, who were in a state of repentance, were also mystified why Jesus they were trying so hard, fasting many times, while His disciples fasted not.
That brings me to your post:
What does this mean?

“And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

How do the examples of patches and new wine in old skins relate to the disciples fasting or not?
So we have the prerequisite factor that we are speaking about the Law to good repenting disciples of John the Baptist who were truly trying to live out God's Law, after he already admonished the Pharisees for following the law instead of the Law.
Jesus is the Way to Salvation, when we are with Him we will rejoice forevermore. His disciples were with Him while He physically lived among them. They had no reason to fast while they were rejoicing with Him as the glory of God roundly trounced sin, death, and the kingdom of this world. When you ferment wine in a wine-skin it expands. Old wine-skins get stretched out so if you keep doing that they will crack and tear. Jesus however was talking about the new wine He was to bring through the Holy Spirit. The Law was our tutor but it was also an old wine-skin. God wishes to bring us a new heart by filling us with the Holy Spirit. The fasting would happen after the crucifixion because the Bridegroom and the Bride (the Church) were not physically connected. But God would give us a new heart which is the promised heart which would abide in Him through the Holy Spirit. Ezekiel 18:31 and Ezekiel 36:26 Luke 11:13. The New Covenant was not the same as the old wine-skin the Law but knowing God personally in the Spirit which abides in every true believer in Christ submitted to the will of God. We live with the new wine in new wine-skins.
In Christ, Pat
 
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Honoluluwindow

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What does this mean?

“And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

How do the examples of patches and new wine in old skins relate to the disciples fasting or not?
Old wine skins = first century Pharisaic Judaism
 
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DeerGlow

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Not sure that salvation is in view here. The issues in this and surrounding chapters is religious practice, not theories of salvation.

Yeah I just need to keep going with it. Thanks for the help though that one's hard.
 
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Soyeong

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What does this mean?

“And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

How do the examples of patches and new wine in old skins relate to the disciples fasting or not?

I recommend this article:

New Wine and Old Wineskins
 
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