Papal Infallibility.

[chilehed]

So, are leaders unaccountable? Are they infallible if they so self-claim?

Infallibility has nothing to do with them claiming it, but rather on the fact that Jesus promised it to the shepherds he set in watch over his church.

The shepherds are very accountable - they are accountable to God.

 

[Knowledge3]

I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.

 

[Trento]

Here's a question: how many Protestant leaders spoke out against the Nazis, whether in Europe or in America, when it became known that they were slaughtering Jews like cattle? How many of those enlightened souls gave a damn about the Jewish people then? And how many Jews did they help escape from the death camps?

This is ironic when the American protestant press was unwilling to aid Europian Jews during the Holocaust. The articles in Robert Ross a (protestant), book clearly document this.

So It Was True: The American Protestant Press and the Nazi Persecution of the Jews." published in 1980,

j. - Protestant Holocaust scholar confronts years of denial

 

[BrightCandle]

The ministry of the Pope is a supreme pastor with the power of jurisdiction to maintain universal unity and orthodoxy within the Christian Church. We see this unity by which all Catholics should adhear to in the Catholic Catachism which parallels the teachings of the Apostles and the first Bishops of the Church who were instructed by Apostles.
The disunity and division of the Rest of Christiondom cannot give one much confidence that the Holy Spirit is at work there.
The strong concern with unity is scriptural:

• [SIZE=-1]John 17:20-23: [Jesus praying to the Father for his disciples:] I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.[/SIZE]

Notice two things which are striking about this passage: - Jesus seldom repeats himself in the Bible, but twice Christ tells us that we are to have the unbelievably profound unity shared between the Father and the Son (3 times counting Jn 17:11). - Twice Christ tells us that a reason for unity is to spread and maintain the faith: that the world may believe/know that God sent him, so that the world may be Christian. The inverse of this statement is that if we are not profoundly united, the world will not believe that God sent Christ as his only begotten Son: indeed, Christian division has been associated with falling levels of faith in western society since the Reformation. So many claims of truth have been made with such certainty--even within Christianity--that the very notion of truth is now questioned. The anger, hatred, self-righteousness, and persecution even within Christianity has lent credence to the notion that religion needs to be a purely private matter.

Christ even gives us a reason why disunity will result in falling levels of faith: Mt 12:25: [Speaking of spiritual kingdoms, Jesus said:]

Every Kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city, or house divided against itself will stand.

The increasingly secular mindset of our country has proven disastrous in terms of both the destruction of the social fabric broken homes, drug abuse, crime, etc. and of lost souls. We tend to be angry at those of a secular mind-set: but what Christ seems to be telling is that the problem is us: Christians. Disunity is the reason for falling levels of faith. God asked, even begged, for unity, but everyone did it their way, and as always, paid the price for disobedience. It is tragic that so many are hurt in the process.

When the Pope is exhalted to the position of Supreme Pontiff, it sets him and the RCC up to committ terrible acts of persecution of what the church deems as heretics. Case in the point the Inquisition. Jesus said that among his disciples they would not rule over each other like the Gentiles do, and yet that is exactly what the RCC does in its religious realm and when it can in the secular realm as well. As I said in an earlier post, the RCC church is more Roman than catholic.

 

[She]

When the Pope is exhalted to the position of Supreme Pontiff, it sets him and the RCC up to committ terrible acts of persecution of what the church deems as heretics. Case in the point the Inquisition. Jesus said that among his disciples they would not rule over each other like the Gentiles do, and yet that is exactly what the RCC does in its religious realm and when it can in the secular realm as well. As I said in an earlier post, the RCC church is more Roman than catholic.

The ministry of the Pope is a supreme pastor with the power of jurisdiction to maintain universal unity and orthodoxy within the Christian Church. We see this unity by which all Catholics should adhear to in the Catholic Catachism which parallels the teachings of the Apostles and the first Bishops of the Church who were instructed by Apostles.
The disunity and division of the Rest of Christiondom cannot give one much confidence that the Holy Spirit is at work there.
The strong concern with unity is scriptural:
John 17:20-23: [Jesus praying to the Father for his disciples:] I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
Notice two things which are striking about this passage: - Jesus seldom repeats himself in the Bible, but twice Christ tells us that we are to have the unbelievably profound unity shared between the Father and the Son (3 times counting Jn 17:11). - Twice Christ tells us that a reason for unity is to spread and maintain the faith: that the world may believe/know that God sent him, so that the world may be Christian.

Jesus also said: I have just two commandments: Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments hang the whole law and prophets also.

So from the teachings of this simplistic person, we have Canon Law and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Where did Jesus say that he wanted the Apostles to rule over other people with laws? Jesus's teachings were all about love, not laws.

Every Kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city, or house divided against itself will stand.

Jesus also spoke about the Pharisees and their laws. He seemed to be against that type of set-up. Obviously, when men were permitted to start reading the Bible for themselves, they must have noticed the differences between what Jesus said, how he lived and what the Pontiff said and how he lived. When Popes were producing illegitimate children and involved in money-making schemes, what do you expect Christian people to do? There was no alternative. Any Spirit-minded person would have left the Catholic Church at that time.

Many of us would fail that test of obedience when Scripture commands: "obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account" (Hebrews 13:17). Indeed "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9) for even the first apostles were denied and disobeyed by many who claimed Christ. However, if we study in Scripture both the authority of the apostles and the ill rejection of that authority, we may learn how to identify, respect, and obey our authentic spiritual leaders of today rather than joining with those who "accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, turning away from listening to the truth" (2nd Timothy 4:3).

Most Christians (unless they are non-denominational) do follow spiritual leaders. However, ultimately, the only Spiritual leader we should be following is Jesus. It is to Him that we are accountable. Not the Pope. It is possible that human spiritual leaders can get it wrong. Therefore, we must remember the only person worthy to be called our Spiritual Teacher: Jesus.

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,

2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses' seat.

3 All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don't do their works; for they say, and don't do.

4 For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them.

5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments,

6 and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,

7 the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men.

8 But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.

9 Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven.

10 Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ.

11 But he who is greatest among you will be your servant.

12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and as a pretense you make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

14 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men; for you don't enter in yourselves, neither do you allow those who are entering in to enter.


34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city;

 

[BrightCandle]

Jesus also said: I have just two commandments: Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments hang the whole law and prophets also.

So from the teachings of this simplistic person, we have Canon Law and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Where did Jesus say that he wanted the Apostles to rule over other people with laws? Jesus's teachings were all about love, not laws.



Jesus also spoke about the Pharisees and their laws. He seemed to be against that type of set-up. Obviously, when men were permitted to start reading the Bible for themselves, they must have noticed the differences between what Jesus said, how he lived and what the Pontiff said and how he lived. When Popes were producing illegitimate children and involved in money-making schemes, what do you expect Christian people to do? There was no alternative. Any Spirit-minded person would have left the Catholic Church at that time.



Most Christians (unless they are non-denominational) do follow spiritual leaders. However, ultimately, the only Spiritual leader we should be following is Jesus. It is to Him that we are accountable. Not the Pope. It is possible that human spiritual leaders can get it wrong. Therefore, we must remember the only person worthy to be called our Spiritual Teacher: Jesus.

Right on sister. I would add only one other thing, and that is that leaders are accountable to the church as well. When a leader is exhalted to the godlike position of Pope, and he turns out to be a evil person, but also has the title of Supreme Pontiff how can he be held accountable by the church, when the church is accountable to him?

 

[Zeena]

I believe this view is flawed. It is only when The Pope sits in a special throne and makes a statement that he is infallible...
somehow, I think this is putting the pope above God.

Anyway, I have had about 5 threads picking on Evanglicals and one picking on Anabaptists so I figured I would start a thread about Roman Catholics.

Equal opportunity.

Why would you want to 'pick on' anyone?
This is not the Spirit of Him who called you!

 

[FijianBeliever]

Amazing!!!

 

[She]

Amazing!!!

Yes, I've got to agree with you. It is amazing that we managed to scare our RC friends off this thread. They have not posted for two days. Do you think that it was my post above that did it?

 

[Montanaman]

Yes, I've got to agree with you. It is amazing that we managed to scare our RC friends off this thread. They have not posted for two days. Do you think that it was my post above that did it?

It's more like there are three or four active infallibility threads already going, and there's only so many times you can be ignored before you move on.

 

[She]

It's more like there are three or four active infallibility threads already going, and there's only so many times you can be ignored before you move on.

I know how that feels. You have my sympathy. It's because this forum is so big. Some people's posts get overlooked.

 

[Trento]

Right on sister. I would add only one other thing, and that is that leaders are accountable to the church as well. When a leader is exhalted to the godlike position of Pope, and he turns out to be a evil person, but also has the title of Supreme Pontiff how can he be held accountable by the church, when the church is accountable to him?

One of the Popes titles is servent of servents.

Read a book by E.R. Chamberlin (Signet, 1969), entitled "The Bad Popes". The writer finds seven popes that he calls bad, seven out of now almost three hundred. Does this historical fact that some popes lived lives unworthy of their calling discredit the claim of the Catholic Church to be the true Church of Jesus Christ? Let me point Holy Scripture.

Our Lord chose twelve of his disciples to be Apostles, pillars and leaders of the Church (Mark 3:13-19). One of these was Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him, whom Jesus himself called "a devil" (John 6:70-71). The failure and fall of this apostle, personally chosen by Christ, does not discredit Christ's Church. His power is with the Church always (Matt. 28:20), and his Spirit is mightier than the weaknesses of his members.

No sinful pope has ever taught error or tried to change the rules of morality to justify his own bad behavior. Jesus defended the teaching authority of the scribes and Pharisees while attacking their sinful behavior (Matt. 23:2-3). Similarly, even if a pope is a grievous sinner, Jesus is faithful to his promise that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church of Christ, built upon Peter (Matt. 16:18). Peter and his successors the popes, whatever their failings great or small, infallibly teach the truths of Christian doctrine and morality, always sustaining the Church of the living God, so that she is unfailingly the pillar and foundation of truth (1st Tim. 3:15).
Like Judas in the college of apostles, bad popes in the Church cannot discredit the work of Christ. They are a proof of the Church's truth and vitality, that she has survived,for 2000 years in spite of all her sinners, to produce a marvelous array of saints
After all Jesus Predicted that scandal would come but His Church was not the source but individual men.
"Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come,
but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM SCANDAL DOES COME!"
Matthew 18:7

And He said to His disciples, "It is IMPOSSIBLE THAT SCANDALS SHOULD NOT COME;
BUT WOE TO HIM THROUGH WHOM THEY COME."
Luke 17:1


The Catholic church itself is indefectible. It has to be, because it has an indefectible founder.
See Ephesians 5:25-27
Jesus promised He would be with His Church forever.


"I am with you ALL days, even until the end of the world."
Matthew 28:20

"...and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18

"...and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth..."
John 14:16-17

"I will not leave you orphans."
John 14:18

"...a husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church, BEING HIMSELF SAVIOR OF THE BODY."
Ephesians 5:23

 

[She]

One of the Popes titles is servent of servents.

The title does not mean that it is true! How many servants do you know, live in big palaces and have nuns waiting on them hand and foot? The last pope had all his meals cooked for him by Polish nuns. Doesn't sound like a servant's life to me!

 

[Trento]

The title does not mean that it is true! How many servants do you know, live in big palaces and have nuns waiting on them hand and foot? The last pope had all his meals cooked for him by Polish nuns. Doesn't sound like a servant's life to me!

Anyone that actually knew J.P.II knows he was a man of deep prayer and a Mystic. It was at World Youth Day in Toronto in 1980 that Emil Barbar who was born with cerebral palsy and whoDoctors told his parents that he would always need a wheelchair. As he grew older, he started to mumbled and could not speak in clear phrases.
On Easter Monday, his family gathered together with a group of disabled people at St. Peter's Square. Seeing John Paul II, they began to shout: 'Holy Father, come this way! Come this way.
The Pope gave him a kiss on the head. His mother began to cry. The Holy Father asked her, 'Why are you crying?' 'My son can't walk,' she said. 'Take him to Lourdes,' was the reply. 'You will see that he will walk.'
The Pope handed her a cross and rosary. Rosemary and Emil traveled to the French shrine. There, she immersed Emil in the pool that formed following a Marian apparition. a couple weeks later, he stood up and got out of his wheelchair completely healed.
Another time i remember he sent a hopeless non-believer to the Divine Mercy devotion. "Entrust yourself to Jesus and pray to my Sister Faustina asking for her intercession," the Pope told the man -- who, then prayed before an image of Divine Mercy at an altar (in Trent)and felt a twitch through his body, had a vision of Jesus, felt a warmth pass through his body, and suddenly realized he was standing out of the wheelchair to which he had been condemned for years!
These are not unverified. They are documented by a professional journalist. Intriguingly, a Jewish man who attended a Papal Mass at Castel Gandolfo and took Communion from the Pope without knowing that non-Catholics should not do so was nonetheless instantly healed of a brain tumor.

During Youth Day in Toronto in 2002, another sixteen-year-old, Angela Baronni -- ill with devastating bone cancer -- was prayed over by the pontiff, who put his hands on her head and made the Sign of the Cross. Afterward, her body showed no trace of cancer.
On July 1, 2004, John Paul II received sixteen-year-old Rafal of Lubaczow in a private audience. The boy had lymphoma -- but right after the meeting was healed of the "incurable" disease. As in other cases, the cure befuddled doctors.
The Pope treated seriously those who wrote to him with personal prayer requests there were hours of such prayer each day.

 

[icedtea]

Jesus promised He would be with His Church forever.

]

His church doesn't have a denomination though.

 

[She]

Anyone that actually knew J.P.II knows he was a man of deep prayer and a Mystic.

Sorry, I did not mean to insult that pope. I know that he was a very charismatic person and everyone loved him.

It was only after his death, however, that I discovered how he lived and also, his attitude to women. That put me off him a bit.

He had an opportunity in 1982, to address issues with regard to contraception, when he visited England but he refused to do so. Cardinal Basil Hume presented him with some documents which raised concerns over the Church's teaching regarding contraception. The concerns were raised on behalf of the British Catholic Community. However, Pope JP II dismissed these documents with a wave of his hand. This incident was reported in the Tablet in an article entitled 'Hume's Mission Impossible'.

Now speaking of mystics and holy men, Cardinal Basil Hume was a much holier man, in my opinion. He had compassion and humility. Had he been chosen to be the Pope, I would still be a Roman Catholic.

 

[BrightCandle]

One of the Popes titles is servent of servents.

That is like me saying to everyone on CF that: "I'm the most humble of all Christians in the world". By the Pope taking such a title, it betrays his true motive, and disqualifies himself as being the "servant of servants".

 

[lionroar0]

That is like me saying to everyone on CF that: "I'm the most humble of all Christians in the world". By the Pope taking such a title, it betrays his true motive, and disqualifies himself as being the the "servant of servants".

Itr'a pretty safe to say that even if the Pope won the Nobel Price for peace you would still be able to find something negative about the Pope.


Peace

 

[BrightCandle]

Itr'a pretty safe to say that even if the Pope won the Nobel Price for peace you would still be able to find something negative about the Pope.


Peace

It is safe to say, that I have a problem with the title and claims of the Papacy. As to having a problem with each individual Pope's character, God will be the judge in that matter, as with all of us.

 

[lionroar0]

It is safe to say, that I have a problem with the title and claims of the Papacy. As to having a problem with each individual Pope's character, God will be the judge in that matter, as with all of us.

Thank you for proving my point.


Peace