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Infallibility has nothing to do with them claiming it, but rather on the fact that Jesus promised it to the shepherds he set in watch over his church.So, are leaders unaccountable? Are they infallible if they so self-claim?
Here's a question: how many Protestant leaders spoke out against the Nazis, whether in Europe or in America, when it became known that they were slaughtering Jews like cattle? How many of those enlightened souls gave a damn about the Jewish people then? And how many Jews did they help escape from the death camps?
The ministry of the Pope is a supreme pastor with the power of jurisdiction to maintain universal unity and orthodoxy within the Christian Church. We see this unity by which all Catholics should adhear to in the Catholic Catachism which parallels the teachings of the Apostles and the first Bishops of the Church who were instructed by Apostles.
The disunity and division of the Rest of Christiondom cannot give one much confidence that the Holy Spirit is at work there.
The strong concern with unity is scriptural:
Notice two things which are striking about this passage: - Jesus seldom repeats himself in the Bible, but twice Christ tells us that we are to have the unbelievably profound unity shared between the Father and the Son (3 times counting Jn 17:11). - Twice Christ tells us that a reason for unity is to spread and maintain the faith: that the world may believe/know that God sent him, so that the world may be Christian. The inverse of this statement is that if we are not profoundly united, the world will not believe that God sent Christ as his only begotten Son: indeed, Christian division has been associated with falling levels of faith in western society since the Reformation. So many claims of truth have been made with such certainty--even within Christianity--that the very notion of truth is now questioned. The anger, hatred, self-righteousness, and persecution even within Christianity has lent credence to the notion that religion needs to be a purely private matter.
- [SIZE=-1]John 17:20-23: [Jesus praying to the Father for his disciples:] I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.[/SIZE]
Christ even gives us a reason why disunity will result in falling levels of faith: Mt 12:25: [Speaking of spiritual kingdoms, Jesus said:]
Every Kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city, or house divided against itself will stand.
The increasingly secular mindset of our country has proven disastrous in terms of both the destruction of the social fabric broken homes, drug abuse, crime, etc. and of lost souls. We tend to be angry at those of a secular mind-set: but what Christ seems to be telling is that the problem is us: Christians. Disunity is the reason for falling levels of faith. God asked, even begged, for unity, but everyone did it their way, and as always, paid the price for disobedience. It is tragic that so many are hurt in the process.
When the Pope is exhalted to the position of Supreme Pontiff, it sets him and the RCC up to committ terrible acts of persecution of what the church deems as heretics. Case in the point the Inquisition. Jesus said that among his disciples they would not rule over each other like the Gentiles do, and yet that is exactly what the RCC does in its religious realm and when it can in the secular realm as well. As I said in an earlier post, the RCC church is more Roman than catholic.
The ministry of the Pope is a supreme pastor with the power of jurisdiction to maintain universal unity and orthodoxy within the Christian Church. We see this unity by which all Catholics should adhear to in the Catholic Catachism which parallels the teachings of the Apostles and the first Bishops of the Church who were instructed by Apostles.
The disunity and division of the Rest of Christiondom cannot give one much confidence that the Holy Spirit is at work there.
The strong concern with unity is scriptural:
John 17:20-23: [Jesus praying to the Father for his disciples:] I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
Notice two things which are striking about this passage: - Jesus seldom repeats himself in the Bible, but twice Christ tells us that we are to have the unbelievably profound unity shared between the Father and the Son (3 times counting Jn 17:11). - Twice Christ tells us that a reason for unity is to spread and maintain the faith: that the world may believe/know that God sent him, so that the world may be Christian.
Every Kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city, or house divided against itself will stand.
Many of us would fail that test of obedience when Scripture commands: "obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account" (Hebrews 13:17). Indeed "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9) for even the first apostles were denied and disobeyed by many who claimed Christ. However, if we study in Scripture both the authority of the apostles and the ill rejection of that authority, we may learn how to identify, respect, and obey our authentic spiritual leaders of today rather than joining with those who "accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, turning away from listening to the truth" (2nd Timothy 4:3).
Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses' seat.
3 All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don't do their works; for they say, and don't do.
4 For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them.
5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments,
6 and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
7 the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men.
8 But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.
9 Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ.
11 But he who is greatest among you will be your servant.
12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and as a pretense you make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
14 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men; for you don't enter in yourselves, neither do you allow those who are entering in to enter.
34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city;
Jesus also said: I have just two commandments: Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments hang the whole law and prophets also.
So from the teachings of this simplistic person, we have Canon Law and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Where did Jesus say that he wanted the Apostles to rule over other people with laws? Jesus's teachings were all about love, not laws.
Jesus also spoke about the Pharisees and their laws. He seemed to be against that type of set-up. Obviously, when men were permitted to start reading the Bible for themselves, they must have noticed the differences between what Jesus said, how he lived and what the Pontiff said and how he lived. When Popes were producing illegitimate children and involved in money-making schemes, what do you expect Christian people to do? There was no alternative. Any Spirit-minded person would have left the Catholic Church at that time.
Most Christians (unless they are non-denominational) do follow spiritual leaders. However, ultimately, the only Spiritual leader we should be following is Jesus. It is to Him that we are accountable. Not the Pope. It is possible that human spiritual leaders can get it wrong. Therefore, we must remember the only person worthy to be called our Spiritual Teacher: Jesus.
I believe this view is flawed. It is only when The Pope sits in a special throne and makes a statement that he is infallible...
somehow, I think this is putting the pope above God.
Anyway, I have had about 5 threads picking on Evanglicals and one picking on Anabaptists so I figured I would start a thread about Roman Catholics.
Equal opportunity.
Amazing!!!
Yes, I've got to agree with you. It is amazing that we managed to scare our RC friends off this thread. They have not posted for two days. Do you think that it was my post above that did it?
It's more like there are three or four active infallibility threads already going, and there's only so many times you can be ignored before you move on.
Right on sister. I would add only one other thing, and that is that leaders are accountable to the church as well. When a leader is exhalted to the godlike position of Pope, and he turns out to be a evil person, but also has the title of Supreme Pontiff how can he be held accountable by the church, when the church is accountable to him?
One of the Popes titles is servent of servents.
The title does not mean that it is true! How many servants do you know, live in big palaces and have nuns waiting on them hand and foot? The last pope had all his meals cooked for him by Polish nuns. Doesn't sound like a servant's life to me!
His church doesn't have a denomination though.Jesus promised He would be with His Church forever.
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Anyone that actually knew J.P.II knows he was a man of deep prayer and a Mystic.
One of the Popes titles is servent of servents.
That is like me saying to everyone on CF that: "I'm the most humble of all Christians in the world". By the Pope taking such a title, it betrays his true motive, and disqualifies himself as being the the "servant of servants".
Itr'a pretty safe to say that even if the Pope won the Nobel Price for peace you would still be able to find something negative about the Pope.
Peace
It is safe to say, that I have a problem with the title and claims of the Papacy. As to having a problem with each individual Pope's character, God will be the judge in that matter, as with all of us.
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