Pagan Holidays

[Dkh587]

Are you actually willing to talk about the origins of these feasts days or will you simply continue to insist that they are Pagan? Why not reason with us? Instead of simply accusing us and ignoring whatever it is we say?

I’m willing to talk and reason.

I used to celebrate Christmas and Easter, so I understand how people think “oh it’s not pagan, it’s a Christian holiday”, but now I know better.

 

[prodromos]

Where is it written in scripture? That is the spiritual Authority given to us to know all the traditions of the Apostles and Christ. If you can't show it being taught in God's word then it is not a teaching of God but rather a man made tradition.
So where are the verses that show the command to celebrate each of these anniversaries?

Over the course of the year, the faithful are taken on a journey through the Gospels such that even the blind and the illiterate get to hear the Gospel again and again. Christ's incarnation is made present and experienced in the liturgical life of the Church.

 

[prodromos]

I’m willing to talk and reason.

Very happy to hear it.

I used to celebrate Christmas and Easter, so I understand how people think “oh it’s not pagan, it’s a Christian holiday”, but now I know better.

It's close to midnight here and even later in New Zealand. I hope you don't mind waiting several hours for a response (I will also be working all day, so hopefully Ignatius will be available)

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

What we are advocating is remembrance of important events in God's plan for salvation. As has already been stated the Church (Christ's body, the pillar and ground of truth) has for the benefit of the faithful, established a liturgical calendar where we celebrate Christ being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary, His subsequent birth which was announced to the shepherds by the angels, His presentation at the Temple, His being revealed to the world in His baptism by John in the Jordan, His healing of the paralytic and the man born blind (among others), His transfiguration on Mt Tabor, His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, we mourn His betrayal by Judas, then celebrate His resurrection, His ascension, and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

Do all of that everyday and/or as often as possible. You limit days each year when the Apostles taught these things each day. Wherever the Gospel was preached these things also were taught, that you have no verses to show a command for these specific anniversaries to be kept then there is no basis. All the Traditions of the Church were established in the Apostles and Christ. As already stated(2 Thess 2:15; 2 Thess 3:6- and many other verses). Do you have verses to support the keeping of these traditions?

 

[Der Alte]

No; but I've seen lots of evidence that supports this report having validity.
I would encourage you to look into it.

Then provide us with some of that evidence. You have been asked several times. There is NOTHING about Christ's mass that was derived from any pagan practice. If you can, provide us with some credible, verifiable, historical evidence. To be credible such evidence would be written at or near the time of the events in question, by a participant or direct eye witness. Anything other than this is trash.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Over the course of the year, the faithful are taken on a journey through the Gospels such that even the blind and the illiterate get to hear the Gospel again and again. Christ's incarnation is made present and experienced in the liturgical life of the Church.

That is what teaching and preaching is for, each day of the year to anyone who wants to hear the Gospel as children of God we deliver the Good news of all that Christ did to everyone as often as we can. Again you limit days, but the Apostles and the Ministers they ordained taught those things all the time and everywhere they went. And remember we still have a full 24 hour period every Sabbath day to deliver the Gospel to those willing to hear it. There is no command in scripture for the limiting of Days as your proposing, but there is precedent for what I am speaking to you now which is preaching and teaching all that Christ did every day and as often as we can.

 

[Strong in Him]

I used to celebrate Christmas and Easter, so I understand how people think “oh it’s not pagan, it’s a Christian holiday”, but now I know better.

They are pagan holidays if you want them to be pagan holidays.

If you woke up on Easter morning saying, "let us praise the pagan god of fertility and new life", carried out pagan rituals/dances and said pagan incantations; you could well say that that was a pagan holiday.
But if you remembered the events of holy week, read the story of Christ's crucifixion, death and burial and woke on Easter Sunday saying "Christ has risen"; if the Holy Spirit made these Scripture passages more meaningful to you and taught you new things - how is that a pagan celebration?

He who is in you (by his Spirit) is greater than he who is in the world."

 

[Dkh587]

They are pagan holidays if you want them to be pagan holidays.

If you woke up on Easter morning saying, "let us praise the pagan god of fertility and new life", carried out pagan rituals/dances and said pagan incantations; you could well say that that was a pagan holiday.
But if you remembered the events of holy week, read the story of Christ's crucifixion, death and burial and woke on Easter Sunday saying "Christ has risen"; if the Holy Spirit made these Scripture passages more meaningful to you and taught you new things - how is that a pagan celebration?

He who is in you (by his Spirit) is greater than he who is in the world."

Easter is a pagan holy day - the way that Christians celebrating Easter is a syncretized form of celebrating Easter.

that is why churches have Easter egg hunts, sunrise services etc. Easter is not biblical - the Apostles didn’t celebrate it, nor did the original Christians

taking a biblical event & mixing it with A pagan holiday, and celebrating the final product, which is a syncretization, is what Christians are doing now.

why do you think the world celebrates Easter, on the same day that Christians celebrate Easter?

They’re not celebrating Christ - they’re just doing what they’ve always done - celebrate their holy days for their gods.

it’s Christians that don’t understand this - the pagans know that Easter is not about Christ, and many pagans know that Christians hijacked their holy day, and slapped Christ on it, and called it a Christian holiday

I celebrate the holy days of God(Leviticus 23) to remember, and look forward to, what Christ has done, is doing, and will do. No syncretizing with pagan holy days for other gods necessary

 

[HARK!]

Easter is a pagan holy day - the way that Christians celebrating Easter is a syncretized form of celebrating Easter.

that is why churches have Easter egg hunts, sunrise services etc. Easter is not biblical - the Apostles didn’t celebrate it, nor did the original Christians

taking a biblical event & mixing it with A pagan holiday, and celebrating the final product, which is a syncretization, is what Christians are doing now.

Ēostre - Wikipedia

 

[HARK!]

Then provide us with some of that evidence.

Ēostre - Wikipedia

 

[Der Alte]

Eostre-Wikipedia

Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence? That would be something written at or near the times in question by participants or direct eye witness? Nothing at Wiki fits this because it is all 2d-3rd hand.

 

[dzheremi]

Also, even if its name meant anything in terms of its religious content (which it doesn't; I believe the point was made earlier with regard to the 'pagan origins' of the English names for the days of the week), we're then back to the point that virtually no one outside of the Germanic countries calls it that! In the Semitic languages, it is generally called something that is a cognate of the Hebrew for Passover (e.g., Egyptian Arabic بصخه baskha, Amharic ፋሲካ fasika, etc.), which is also true of some European languages (e.g., Spanish pascua), whereas other European languages, like the Slavic languages mentioned earlier, call it something like "Great Day" (e.g., Bulgarian/Macedonian/Belarusian великден velikden). Heck, not even all the Germanic languages call it something descended from Eostre. In Dutch, it is called pasen -- clearly from the Semitic.

Soooo...the Germans, and the English and other Germanic-speaking people, are clearly a bunch of pagans, except for the Dutch! Here's something funny, though: in Frisian, the macrolanguage term for a group of West Germanic dialects spoken in the Netherlands and Germany which are probably the closest living genetic relatives to English, it is called peaske.

Hmm...it's almost like the whole sound similarity/etymological root non-argument is...well, not an argument.

 

[Strong in Him]

Easter is a pagan holy day - the way that Christians celebrating Easter is a syncretized form of celebrating Easter.

In your opinion.
Many of us are celebrating that our Saviour, Jesus Christ, rose from the dead.

that is why churches have Easter egg hunts, sunrise services etc. Easter is not biblical - the Apostles didn’t celebrate it, nor did the original Christians

They preached, lived and taught the resurrection, and met together on the first day of the week when the Lord rose; who says they didn't celebrate the resurrection?

taking a biblical event & mixing it with A pagan holiday, and celebrating the final product, which is a syncretization, is what Christians are doing now.

Speak for yourself.

why do you think the world celebrates Easter, on the same day that Christians celebrate Easter?

The date of Pascha, or Easter, is dependant on the Jewish Passover. Jesus celebrated a final Passover meal with his disciples before he died.
Not only was it the last meal he would eat with them before his death, it was hugely symbolic. Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29 and our Passover Lamb 1 Corinthians 5:7.
Easter, which is about new life, is celebrated in the spring, which is about new life in many other ways. People who are unbelievers may focus on this aspect more than on the Christian story, which I guess is understandable. And then the retailers come along and turn the whole "new life" message into chocolate - commercialism. So we get chocolate bunnies, chocolate eggs from which chocolate chickens hatch, and so on.

What Christians should be doing is reclaiming Easter and Christmas - teaching the story behind all the glitter.

it’s Christians that don’t understand this - the pagans know that Easter is not about Christ,

For unbelievers, those of other faiths and so on, Easter, for them, will be about something other than Christ; true.
That's no reason for Christians to stop celebrating Easter - what should we say, "oh, the pagans have taken over and teach that Easter is not about Christ; we'd better surrender and follow their example"? That's one way of getting out of preaching the Good News, but it's not a very good one.

and many pagans know that Christians hijacked their holy day, and slapped Christ on it, and called it a Christian holiday

If they had a "holy day", then it would probably be the same date each year.
Easter isn't; it can be mid March or end of April, depending on when Passover is.

I celebrate the holy days of God(Leviticus 23) to remember, and look forward to, what Christ has done, is doing, and will do. No syncretizing with pagan holy days for other gods necessary

ALL days are holy days of God as far as I'm concerned. He created all of them, gives new life and new opportunities every morning.
The feasts in Leviticus 23 were given in the OT, before Christ. How can you have a holy day that excludes God the Son, who died to reconcile us to God and who sent his Spirit to make us holy, 2 Corinthians 3:18?

 

[dzheremi]

There are awful lot of Judaizing God-haters in this thread telling the Christians how the early Christians didn't do this or that...

You know what the early Christians really didn't do that we actually have record of? They didn't tolerate Judaizers!

As that most faithful of Jews, the holy St. Paul, put it (Galatians 2:11-14):

Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as Jews?​

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I’m willing to talk and reason.

I used to celebrate Christmas and Easter, so I understand how people think “oh it’s not pagan, it’s a Christian holiday”, but now I know better.

How? Explain how? If you're willing to talk, tell me how Pascha is in any way Pagan.

I read your second post with your reasoning but I want to isolate one thing you've claimed and we can go from there.

Easter is a pagan holy day - the way that Christians celebrating Easter is a syncretized form of celebrating Easter.

So here is the standard of evidence I would have for believing this claim. First, can you point to a genuinely ancient feast celebrated by Pagans called Easter that existed in the second century? Second, can you point to any Christian sources speaking about this feast?

Now I can save you some time. The earliest Christian sources to mention the feast are basically Irenaeus and Melito of Sardis. You can read Melito's Peri Pascha for yourself and see how much Easter/Pascha was derived from Judaism. The mention of Easter by Irenaeus is in regards to the Quotrodeciman heresy. About when was the proper time to celebrate the feast. Some ended the fast on it Sunday while others on the 14th of Nisan. Ireneaus at the time prevented Pope Victor from excommunicating those with different practices.

What Christians did is see Christ in the fulfillment of the Old Passover and put the focus on him. It was essentially rededicated in theme and content to Jesus, instead of doing the same thing Jews do.

You will find at this point that there is no mention of the word "Easter" which is an English/German (Oster) word. Please consider why most non English/Germanic Christians call the feast by Pascha and not resurrection day. The earliest reference is Bede but this wouldn't help you establish or explain the feast itself. At most it helps explain the English name of the feast but others have serious doubts about Bede's account on this point.

I would like if you don't ignore this because after a certain point it becomes tiresome to repeat oneself.

 

[Oldmantook]

Are you changing your account of the origins of Easter? Is it derived from a German Goddess or Babylonian Goddess? Which one is it? Before we can continue I think you need to clarify what your opinion is. How do you deal with the fact that the earliest references to the feast call it Pascha and that Christians in Non English Speaking countries call it by that name as well?

What does Constantine the quote from Constantine prove? I already know the Council of Nicaea decided the date of Pascha because it was an important matter among Christians that they have uniformity of practice regarding the most sacred festival in all Christendom.

Are you kidding? Many Christian churches celebrate Easter with Easter eggs. Just where did that tradition come from? I don't see and eggs described in the resurrection account. If we desire to be scripturally accurate, Pascha refers to the Passover meal - not the resurrection. Moreover, Jesus' resurrection is nowhere commanded to be celebrated in Scripture. It is a tradition of man. So why exactly do you celebrate the Passover meal as the resurrection? You have erred in conflating the two. God never commanded anyone to observe Christ’s resurrection; much less to call it Easter or Pascha for that matter. The fact is the Roman Catholic Church commanded Easter’s observance at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325. Church leaders did not appeal to scriptural authority, only their own authority, to make the change. Sadly, Christ’s warning against substituting human tradition for the commandments of God was ignored (Matthew 15:3; Mark 7:13).

God ordained the Passover to be kept annually on a specific day: the 14th day of the first month on the Hebrew calendar (Deuteronomy 16:1; Leviticus 23:5). The Catholic Church persecuted the early Christians who kept the Passover, calling them Quartodecimans (Latin for “14thers”) and Judaizers.

The Passover was so despised that in 325 CE the Council of Nicaea established that Easter would be held on the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the vernal equinox. From that point forward, the Easter date depended on the ecclesiastical approximation of March 21 for the vernal equinox. This gave Easter a movable date that wouldn’t fall on the Passover. Even then, the Western churches use the Gregorian calendar and the Eastern churches use the Julian calendar, so their dates for Easter differ.

Daniel 7:25 has been accomplished.
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Are you kidding? Many Christian churches celebrate Easter with Easter eggs. Just where did that tradition come from? I don't see and eggs described in the resurrection account. If we desire to be scripturally accurate, Pascha refers to the Passover meal - not the resurrection.

Easter eggs derive from the Lenten fast. Eggs were traditionally abstained from during Lent along with oil, meat and other foods but chickens don't stop laying eggs. Thus when forty days are over you have an abundance of eggs. Now there are traditional accounts of why we die the eggs read in the Orthodox Church, whether you want to take them seriously you can but I can find no credible evidence that suggests they were a pagan symbol.

The eggs have a Christian symbol in that they represent the breaking of the tomb and Christ conquering death.

Moreover, Jesus' resurrection is nowhere commanded to be celebrated in Scripture. It is a tradition of man. So why exactly do you celebrate the Passover meal as the resurrection?

We do it because Christ is at the centre of everything and the Church is at liberty to celebrate Christ. I do not agree with your standard of doing nothing the Apostles didn't do. I assume you only mean this in a religious context, but even then that's far too restrictive since we don't have many specific examples from the time of the Apostles about their worship services. We can suppose many things but the liturgy in the Church developed the way it did in the need to glorify Christ first and foremost.

The Church, it would seem, has wide disgression to determine it's liturgical rites and what it does. The only argument you have given is that the Apostles didn't do X Y and Z. This to me fails as an argument because the Apostles didn't do a lot of things that the later Church did. Your New Testament canon was not formalized by the Apostles but by the latter Church. Do you believe the Trinity? That theology was developed over time. God is not so lazy as to not allow his Church to respond to crises and challenges over time and invent new ways of doing things. So long as we don't contradict the old. In this way how is Easter a contradiction of the old Passover? No it is the express fulfillment and is better because Christ has been revealed in it. We no longer see the shadow but the object itself.

I would encourage you to read Melito of Sardis' Peri Pascha and how he wonderfully sees Christ in the Old Testament Exodus as the fulfillment of the type we see in the Old Testament.

You have erred in conflating the two. God never commanded anyone to observe Christ’s resurrection; much less to call it Easter or Pascha for that matter. The fact is the Roman Catholic Church commanded Easter’s observance at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325. Church leaders did not appeal to scriptural authority, only their own authority, to make the change. Sadly, Christ’s warning against substituting human tradition for the commandments of God was ignored (Matthew 15:3; Mark 7:13).

The Roman Catholic Church didn't command observance of Easter. It merely regulated the practice of it to have a universal norm for all Christians. The feast was already practiced as early as the second century.

As for this being merely human tradition, Easter has more going for than most others in that it is clearly ancient and I believe was practiced by the Apostles themselves. Not in the form we have it now, but in essence I believe the Apostles would have known to have Christ at the centre of their Pascha celebration. It could not remain merely a remembrance of the Old Pascha since Christ had changed everything.

God ordained the Passover to be kept annually on a specific day: the 14th day of the first month on the Hebrew calendar (Deuteronomy 16:1; Leviticus 23:5). The Catholic Church persecuted the early Christians who kept the Passover, calling them Quartodecimans (Latin for “14thers”) and Judaizers.

I know all this history. I dissagre with your judaizing take on it though. If you want to be a Jew, I'm not stopping you.

The Passover was so despised that in 325 CE the Council of Nicaea established that Easter would be held on the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the vernal equinox. From that point forward, the Easter date depended on the ecclesiastical approximation of March 21 for the vernal equinox. This gave Easter a movable date that wouldn’t fall on the Passover. Even then, the Western churches use the Gregorian calendar and the Eastern churches use the Julian calendar, so their dates for Easter differ.

I know all this.

 

[Oldmantook]

The eggs have a Christian symbol in that they represent the breaking of the tomb and Christ conquering death.

The tradition of men.

We do it because Christ is at the centre of everything and the Church is at liberty to celebrate Christ. I do not agree with your standard of doing nothing the Apostles didn't do. I assume you only mean this in a religious context, but even then that's far too restictive since we don't have many specific examples from the time of the Apostles about their worship services. We can suppose many things but the liturgy in the Church developed the way it did in the need to glorify Christ first and foremost.

Again, the tradition of men with no scriptural precedent.

he Roman Catholic Church didn't command observance of Easter. It merely regulated the practice of it to have a universal norm for all Christians. The feast was already practiced as early as the second century.

As for this being merely human tradition, Easter has more going for than most others in that it is clearly ancient and I believe was practiced by the Apostles themselves. Not in the form we have it now, but in essence I believe the Apostles would have known to have Christ at the centre of their Pascha celebration. It could not remain merely a remembrance of the Old Pascha since Christ had changed everything.

They had no authority or warrant for adding to the Word. The Passover feast is not the same as the resurrection. The Apostles kept Passover - no Biblical mention of celebrating the resurrection whatsoever.

I know all this history. I dissagre with your judaizing take on it though. If you want to be a Jew, I'm not stopping you.

This historical facts speak for themselves.

I know all this.

We both know it and interpret it differently.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The tradition of men.

Therefore what? Does it contradict anything Christ laid down? Let me ask you, do you believe in the Trinity?

Again, the tradition of men with no scriptural precedent.

I agree there's no scriptural precedent for you being against our worship of Christ.

They had no authority or warrant for adding to the Word. The Passover feast is not the same as the resurrection. The Apostles kept Passover - no Biblical mention of celebrating the resurrection whatsoever.

The Apostles didn't celebrate when Jesus was resurrected? Are you sure?

 

[dzheremi]

The only 'tradition of men' I'm seeing in these recent posts is the pseudo-Christian tradition of "I don't see it in the Bible, therefore it could've never have happened/is condemned."

Meanwhile, the actual scriptures tell us things like this:

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

"And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25)

"but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)

etc., etc.

But I'm sure none of that matters, because something something Jewish something.