Pagan Christianity

[TargetPractice]

I think Pagan Christianity streches things a bit far.

We are to have an "orderly form of worship", as well as leadership within the congregation so that we are not lead astray. Over the past 2000 years "policies and procedures" have been put in place to make things easier.

I also never looked at a church steeple as a "phallic object" until reading this book. You can certainly take things a little too far.

In my opinion, there is a place for the organized church AND small groups. I wouldn't want to do church without either. (but I prefer our own small group over a church sanctioned and administered small group)

 

[cardigon]

yes

 

[Johnnz]

I think Pagan Christianity streches things a bit far.

We are to have an "orderly form of worship", as well as leadership within the congregation so that we are not lead astray. Over the past 2000 years "policies and procedures" have been put in place to make things easier.

I also never looked at a church steeple as a "phallic object" until reading this book. You can certainly take things a little too far.

In my opinion, there is a place for the organized church AND small groups. I wouldn't want to do church without either. (but I prefer our own small group over a church sanctioned and administered small group)

Neither size nor structures of themselves are to be the critical factors in choosing a smaller group over a more formal one.

I attend a house church mainly because I see the NT church as being more of a living organism some formal structure. When Christians gather together in NT times it was with a real sense of being an alternative community, where various gifts were recognised and regularly evidenced, where oversight was plural and teaching was life related and teaching was informed and substantial in content.

I remained within denominational church structures for most of my adult life (too long in retrospect) hoping to see some changes, but alas that was too threatening of the status quo for the ministry of each those churches. Finally I took an opportunity to gather with some who also wanted a more life-giving, relevant Christian community.

Through reading, the internet and attending a variety of Christian teaching opportunities I endeavour to remain in contact with the wider Christian community. Isolation is not an option for me.

John
NZ

 

[Episaw]

We are to have an "orderly form of worship", as well as leadership within the congregation so that we are not lead astray.

Just what is an "orderly" form of worship. Whenever I have seen discussion of this topic, it usually means a set order of service with hymns, prayer, communion and sermon and which NEVER changes from week to week.

And then there is the orderly form of worship in Corinthians where the church is taught no more than two or three messages in tongues and which includes other gifts of the Spirit.

One might say it is man controlling everything v the Holy Spirit in control because the gifts cannot operate unless the Holy Spirit is present and as we know he gives them severally AS HE WILLS.

Maybe this "orderly" form of worship is a matter of security or control. A lot less dangerous that letting the Holy Spirit decide the agenda.

 

[dayhiker]

Basically, what church leadership and and what the Holy Spirit think of as orderly seem to be two different things as best I can tell. I think that comes from our different perspectives. Humans tend to think of orderly in terms of physical things being in their place. God's order is people being in a right relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The later takes some discernment to know as if involves what is going on in a persons heart. The former we can all see with our eyes and hear with our ears.

I was a leader in a meeting that appeared to be on the edge of being very chaotic. But as I talked with each person it was clear the Spirit of God was working in each person heart. Another time I was in a meeting and it sounded very much the same. So I asked a few what was going on to which I got I don't know type comments. So it seems that it was just an emotional experience. Didn't appear anyone was going to get hurt so no big deal. But the answers showed one was more of a physical emotional expression while the other was a reaction of bodies to what the Spirit was doing in their hearts.

 

[Stefos]

Well!

It seems that we need to get back to the written word & seek the Holy Spirit regarding how HE wants stuff done & ditch denominationalism & American Christianity altogether because both of these, In my view, hinder the Holy Spirit.

Now, someone might say "The Holy Spirit can do whatever he wants to do because he's God."
My response "True but he's not a demon to possess people nor does he force people to do his will AND God has commissioned the Gospel to be preached via people not angels or the animal kingdoms!

My view of course,
Stefos

 

[hopeinGod]

I read it and find I'm now more separated from the mainstream than I ever thought possible. When I drive by one of those Babylonian structures, I wince, knowing I was taken in by them for far too many years, thinking one can choose ministry as an occupation and with folks easily accepting of the fact that one man is doing all the blabbering and teaching, which in most cases isn't much more than his take on the last CD or tape he listened to. In fact, I feel free of those traps and plan never to return.

 

[Stefos]

I read it and find I'm now more separated from the mainstream than I ever thought possible. When I drive by one of those Babylonian structures, I wince, knowing I was taken in by them for far too many years, thinking one can choose ministry as an occupation and with folks easily accepting of the fact that one man is doing all the blabbering and teaching, which in most cases isn't much more than his take on the last CD or tape he listened to. In fact, I feel free of those traps and plan never to return.

YEP!!!!!!!

Now, trying going on to a Christian Mingle and telling these Christian women this!

Most of them are brainwashed into thinking that the Pastor driven model IS biblical Christianity............Well, IT AIN'T!

Now brother, do you know what I'm talking about?

Not so easy right? Didn't think so.

This country has been so brainwashed into the Pastoral model they can't recognize the Headship of Jesus with Elders giving oversight!

Try this experiment: Go to a Pastor driven church & tell them what God's word says & see what happens to you...See what buzz words are said.

Let all us know by posting back here.........It's sad man.

Pray for this country.

Stefos

 

[hopeinGod]

I suppose someone is taking the present awakening to reality as the devil's device or tool to separate the sheep. But, let us separate. Let's get away, flee those old confines. It's been much needed for centuries. Truth is, I like where I'm at now, alone and no longer in the midst of such dealings of the past. For me, there is now no more subjecting myself to the "foolishness of preaching" and the constant, obsessive societal analysis that is always initiated by the ambitious and power thirsty. It's all Babylonian to me now.

 

[Stefos]

I suppose someone is taking the present awakening to reality as the devil's device or tool to separate the sheep. But, let us separate. Let's get away, flee those old confines. It's been much needed for centuries. Truth is, I like where I'm at now, alone and no longer in the midst of such dealings of the past. For me, there is now no more subjecting myself to the "foolishness of preaching" and the constant, obsessive societal analysis that is always initiated by the ambitious and power thirsty. It's all Babylonian to me now.

I also like where I'm at.

The issue is that because we've nixed the denominational/non-denom. thing, we've been marginalized.

Furthermore, any time we speak about the things that God's word clearly teaches, we'll be further marginalized.

Count on it.......Follow Jesus man.

Forget American Christianity.....God isn't in it, he's IN his people who happen to be in Americanized Christianity!

Keep your head clear & seek the Lord regarding biblical fellowship along with the biblical governmental model.......Aka. Elders giving oversight along with the diaconate & Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, and Evangelists equipping the saints for the work of service, while allowing the Lord Jesus to be the functional head of your local expression of his body!

Stefos

 

[hopeinGod]

I gave my copy of Pagan Christianity to my brother and he's now 3/4's of the way into it, and being blown away. To be fair, Violas does seem to indicate that he believes water baptism saves, so I guess there's a bit of error in his thinking as well. Still, the Lord is using him to change the perspective of others, to give them pause to reexamine their long held belief system.

I've come up with a great idea for a song to be written and recorded, to be used for this march to freedom, but I don't want to give it away. It's ideal, very fitting. Maybe soon I can begin to work on it. I'm a bassist who first began as a rhythm guitarist. We've got a sock hop coming up that's demanding our time at the moment. Harmonies, you know.

 

[gfellowships]

While many of the facts presented carry weight and accuracy, the spirit in which it was written may not be very edifying. I know there's a lot that should be changed in how we 'do church' and even that terminology is skewed. But a lot of the people in these churches really do love God with their hearts even if their knowledge isn't the same. I'm a Christian-seeker because I've been in both worlds. I've grown up in the church world and when I found out a lot of it wasnt how it 'should be' I stopped fellowshipping and guess what? It's brought me to where I am now, confused and miserable. You know what they say - knowledge increases sorrow. But I dont think God called us to separate ourselves from our brethren because we do things differently and they dont have understanding of the core of many traditions but this doesnt mean we abandon them. I guess house churches or home groups or whatever are a halfway point and we'd LOVE to find or start a home group, but ya gotta meet people in order to do that.

I believe you are right brother that if we do not have the right heart we can be "right" but not pleasing to the Lord and not able to fellowship or learn from others. It would be better to have a clear and spirit-filled relationship with God in any institutional church then be a house church and be full of bitterness, unforgiveness and lack of trust of others.

 

[dagiffy]

I believe you are right brother that if we do not have the right heart we can be "right" but not pleasing to the Lord and not able to fellowship or learn from others. It would be better to have a clear and spirit-filled relationship with God in any institutional church then be a house church and be full of bitterness, unforgiveness and lack of trust of others.

It isn't an "either/or" proposition, thankfully. The institutional church is simply not of God. Neither is McDonald's. That doesn't make either of them wrong, so to speak.

If there was what you call a "house church" full of bitterness, unforgiveness, and lack of trust of others, I'd confront the brethren with these things. If there was no repentance, fine, I don't have to be there...but I'll never return to the "church service" approach for one reason:

Jesus told me to stop participating in that particular ritual if I wanted that intimacy with Him I had before I ever attended a "church service".

I avoid the IC because He told me so, and for no other reason.

Eternal life is knowing God, and if He came so that we might have life more abundantly, then I will have that life more abundantly the more intimate my relationship is with Him.

I will avoid anything and everything that would introduce the yeast of the Pharisees into my life, because a little leavens the whole lump. You can't play with that stuff or play around it without getting some of it in you, and as we see from the Israelites, the fruit of the church service type of ritual is spiritual blindness whether you call it the synagogue service or the church service.

Intimacy with God does not come through bible study, either, else the Pharisees would have been the FIRST to recognize Who He was. If bible studies and sermons gave us what He wanted us to have, then He'd have chosen Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes as his disciples, right? But even though there were literally THOUSANDS of those people walking around Palestine in His day, he didn't choose even ONE of them!

People can be in the IC and "love the Lord", sure, but why does that mean that you have to sit through a church service ritual with them? There's no fellowship in a church service. Can't you fellowship with people in the IC without sitting through a church service? I don't see why not. I don't have any intention of avoiding those people, but because of Jesus I will avoid taking part in those rituals...simply because that is what He told me I needed to do to enjoy intimacy with Him.

And I'm glad my choices aren't limited to: 1) IC services or 2) house church filled with bitterness, unforgiveness, and lack of trust.

 

[hopeinGod]

Well said (written), dag. We have been redeemed from all those former commandments of men, and it is about time. If there was anything the Lord wanted us to figure out through all these many years of error saturated IC services, it's that we do not need them. They are today's replacement for the leaven of the Pharisees and have done almost nothing that they seemed to promise, other than justify the sinner.

Growth, today, is all about building another assembly, receiving money from others for one's own gain, and the never-ending, broken record erroneous training spread abroad by the terribly infected.

It's not unlike a disease that is shared, only to grow to epidemic proportions. And yet, the people love to have it so.

 

[tobethebest]

I've read it and love it. It has changed my way of thinking regarding the church, and I may never enter a man-made house of God ever again. Those buildings need to be taken down and true religion, undefiled begin.

 

[Episaw]

When you discuss a topic like this, it seems that the two most obvious responses is the decent and in order thing and its not good to be alone. These suppositions presupposes that people who go out on a limb are going to be involved in something that is indecent and disorderly and they are going to do it alone.

What this tells me is that people are responding according to their ideas about church based on their own experience or what the denomination says.

The NT Church met in homes so on the basis of those type of comments they were doing things indecently and disorderly and they were not giving their time to organised religion.

In addition all the times that they spent together somehow was being done alone.

Now, none of this makes sense so one has to assume that the writers are not really interested in rightly dividing the word of truth. They would rather support the status quo which they have been brainwashed to do by their denomination.

This is sad because the status quo is keeping away 90% of unbelievers who by and large are not interested in a Sunday morning gatherings to go through a ritual that NEVER changes and in usually nothing more than what man thinks.

I have addressed this recently as I became aware of a vast demographic that the church does not address, namely the fatherless. I had a very strong conviction that I had to make myself available to him to begin a ministry of this kind.

The model that has developed is a cafe church that meets on a Saturday afternoon. I am going to gain the use of cafe that does not open on Saturday afternoon so it wil already be set up for a cafe church. There are no priests, pastors or religious entities running the show. It will be laymen led. There will be no sermons, just discussion and study of the word with everyone involved. Food and drink on the tables for people to consume as they please. Asking questions will be standard. And most importantly, when people come to terms with the problems their fatherlessness has caused them there will be anointed praying to bring release to the captive. people will be free to come and go as they please. No offerings will be taken as we shall trust God entirely for our income.

The programme each week will be determined by who is there and the problems they need addressing or questions they need answering.

Decent and in order? Not for the religionist. Gathering together. Probably not in sufficient numbers for the dye in the wool church building idealists.

However what will probably happen is people finding God to be real and approachable and they will develop a dynamic relationship with him so much so they will tell others to come and see someone who can give life and freedom.

Isn't that better than knowing every song in the songbook?

 

[Stefos]

When you discuss a topic like this, it seems that the two most obvious responses is the decent and in order thing and its not good to be alone. These suppositions presupposes that people who go out on a limb are going to be involved in something that is indecent and disorderly and they are going to do it alone.

What this tells me is that people are responding according to their ideas about church based on their own experience or what the denomination says.

The NT Church met in homes so on the basis of those type of comments they were doing things indecently and disorderly and they were not giving their time to organised religion.

In addition all the times that they spent together somehow was being done alone.

Now, none of this makes sense so one has to assume that the writers are not really interested in rightly dividing the word of truth. They would rather support the status quo which they have been brainwashed to do by their denomination.

This is sad because the status quo is keeping away 90% of unbelievers who by and large are not interested in a Sunday morning gatherings to go through a ritual that NEVER changes and in usually nothing more than what man thinks.

I have addressed this recently as I became aware of a vast demographic that the church does not address, namely the fatherless. I had a very strong conviction that I had to make myself available to him to begin a ministry of this kind.

The model that has developed is a cafe church that meets on a Saturday afternoon. I am going to gain the use of cafe that does not open on Saturday afternoon so it wil already be set up for a cafe church. There are no priests, pastors or religious entities running the show. It will be laymen led. There will be no sermons, just discussion and study of the word with everyone involved. Food and drink on the tables for people to consume as they please. Asking questions will be standard. And most importantly, when people come to terms with the problems their fatherlessness has caused them there will be anointed praying to bring release to the captive. people will be free to come and go as they please. No offerings will be taken as we shall trust God entirely for our income.

The programme each week will be determined by who is there and the problems they need addressing or questions they need answering.

Decent and in order? Not for the religionist. Gathering together. Probably not in sufficient numbers for the dye in the wool church building idealists.

However what will probably happen is people finding God to be real and approachable and they will develop a dynamic relationship with him so much so they will tell others to come and see someone who can give life and freedom.

Isn't that better than knowing every song in the songbook?

Hi,

I currently fellowship with believers in their apartment/home.

Many years ago..I asked the Lord about these IC's & why there were so many denoms. & that they weren't saying what the word said.
He told me I didn't need to go there....Many years later & after getting the historical background "Pagan Christianity?" more fully offered, I don't know why the Lord allowed me to go through the denominational mess!! LOL

Good intentioned people trying to function in a wrong model is what it ALL is.

Biblical Christianity is NOT denominationalism nor is it a "House Church," It's BIBLICAL in nature and has the written word as a boilerplate start with the Holy Spirit leading & guiding.

I do see why the status quo is happening....Want to know why?
Fear....because of what I've been told is the DOGMATIC way Pastor/My Priest/My Bishop taught me AND
Laziness.....Let the "professional" tell me & let me not research "church history" or what the written word really says or what the Holy Spirit did & how He moved the early believers.

You are right in saying not to separate from these believers but to not participate in the Sunday morning "Pastor preaches out of pulpitism" which happens every week.

Every believer has a ministry via the Holy Spirit in them.
The modern day Pastor/Priest model in most churches is false through & through.
To boot, Elders in these churches are board members & don't qualify as Biblical Elders nor do modern Deacon's boards follow the Biblical pattern...they too don't qualify as Biblical Deacons.

The answer? What does the written word say & How did people deviate & allow compromise?
God's word is clear & people allowed compromise because they wanted to follow their selfish desires & not God will or word.

God needs to bring judgement on the modern "Pastor/Priest" model & get rid of the posers who don't have the Gift of Pastor or Teacher or Evangelist or Prophet or Apostle.

Amen.....Do it Lord for your integrity's sake.
In the name of Jesus....Thank you

Stefos

 

[hopeinGod]

Yes, judgment, we are told, should begin in the house of God, and so we ask for that. Judge us, oh Lord, draw out those self willed and arrogant ways of our past and continue to do so throughout the body of Christ. If I lived near you, Stephos, I would visit your gathering place. It sounds like a good place to get what God intended all along. Perhaps, when I retire, the Lord will lead me to begin one as well. My house is far too small and does not provide sufficient parking for more than four cars, so I would have to find a place that would permit us the use of their property.

Already, as a reader/writer and book enthusiast, I am involved in one book club that meets once a month at the cultural center. Building a website for them last week was a joy as it gave me the impetus to go on with whatever the Lord would want me to do for Him as well. It has been many, many years since I was a part of any Bible based gathering, so it will feel like I am all thumbs, but the Lord is able to raise up whom He will. One step at a time.

 

[Stefos]

Perhaps, when I retire, the Lord will lead me to begin one as well. My house is far too small and does not provide sufficient parking for more than four cars, so I would have to find a place that would permit us the use of their property.

It has been many, many years since I was a part of any Bible based gathering, so it will feel like I am all thumbs, but the Lord is able to raise up whom He will.

Brother, this is not speaking from Faith!

Perhaps & when??? Come on!

Even IF your house only has room for 4 cars, Allow God to bring 4 cars with 2-4 people per car!

You aren't responsible for feeding everyone nor are you responsible for paying for their gas brother....Come on!

Finally...This:
"Many years since I was a part of any Bible based gathering"???
What?

Brother, In the name of the Lord Jesus, stretch out your hand & start asking hurt or burned believers you know to fellowship around the person of Jesus OUR LORD man.

I know you can do, through His grace. Anything else is merely an excuse unless you are in a chronic illness....really.

Do it! God bless your efforts.
Stefos

 

[Episaw]

God needs to bring judgement on the modern "Pastor/Priest" model & get rid of the posers who don't have the Gift of Pastor or Teacher or Evangelist or Prophet or Apostle.

Amen.....Do it Lord for your integrity's sake. In the name of Jesus....Thank you

I would agree but I am thinking that the separation of sheep from goats is going to happen through persecution. The false church will cave in to the demands of culture to avoid persecution but the true church won't so we need to brace ourselves for the persecution coming and for the fact that a lot of it will come from the supposed church.