Pagan Christianity

ezeric

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Hey brother John NZ

Read it a few years ago, and for the most part liked it.

Also Frank Viola and some 'house church' organization (if you can really call it that) here in Canada had a conference with Frank as the 'key speaker'.

We had many from our 'house church' there for the meetings, and were surprised at how many were in attendance.

What we found was that we ended up sharing our experiences over and over again to many interested ears - as it seemed there were the majority wanting to learn more and perhaps try it or get into it, and we were of the few that have been following the LORD like this for years. Saying all that, from what I've read about you, you've been at it much longer than me. :)

-eric

The Exchanged Life
 
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AnonUser2013

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While many of the facts presented carry weight and accuracy, the spirit in which it was written may not be very edifying. I know there's a lot that should be changed in how we 'do church' and even that terminology is skewed. But a lot of the people in these churches really do love God with their hearts even if their knowledge isn't the same. I'm a Christian-seeker because I've been in both worlds. I've grown up in the church world and when I found out a lot of it wasnt how it 'should be' I stopped fellowshipping and guess what? It's brought me to where I am now, confused and miserable. You know what they say - knowledge increases sorrow. But I dont think God called us to separate ourselves from our brethren because we do things differently and they dont have understanding of the core of many traditions but this doesnt mean we abandon them. I guess house churches or home groups or whatever are a halfway point and we'd LOVE to find or start a home group, but ya gotta meet people in order to do that.
 
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Johnnz

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Insights into issues that may be hindering te effectiveness and relevance of the Christian community can be valuable. But none of us have got it all right.

I enjoy the challenge of attempting to fill in some gaps and have a more relevant faith, but that does not mean I am negative about well meaning, committed Christians elsewhere. I find it interesting that in the NT, with all the faults of the Hebrew religious system and its leaders there were devout individuals who really were in tune with God.

John
NZ
 
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Johnnz

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One of may major reasons for wanting to be part of a more communicative group was my recognising that many people sitting in churches never had opportunity to share their own stories of their life with Christ. The pulpit dominated church life. Yet, many Christians I knew were well educated, often more so than their pastors, were able to articulate their faith intelligently and with great resources to draw from, yet were essentially silenced. Where did work, parenting, hobbies, sex, children and child rearing, study, pets, creativity, gifts and talents fit in to their lives as Christians?

Our smaller, participative structure allowed one younger women experiencing interpersonal conflict between other coworkers and a supervisor to talk about that. Week by week over about a year those conversations and our prayers gave her support and skills to really facilitate a resolution. The long term outcome of that conversation has been her becoming a supervisor and running a child care centre that has become a model for the accrediting governmental agency that oversees all such centres in our country.

This may never have happened in a more formal church environment.

John
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ezeric

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Much agreed John NZ, she would have been left stagnant for much longer, maybe forever.

We've seen similar things, marriages restored, miracles, lives changed and a love for the lost, who we get to know, and some stick around want to explore more.

The structured institutional church, makes everyone a passive audience at best, leaving the SPIRIT in them silent often and ignored.

It always amazed me that JESUS sat down to teach the people yet our pastors etc.. always stand up and usually behind a lifted up pulpit or platform - something again, JESUS never did.

Since we've learned about Home Church or Home Fellowship it has grown both in size and in quality and we'll never go back!

-eric


The Exchanged Life
 
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lismore

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Interesting book. I enjoyed reading it.

But given that Frank Viola is a keynote speaker would his model of church be any different from that which he is critical of?

Would he not be the man 'up front'?

Interesting points he makes but I think he takes it too far............

God Bless:)
 
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I read it, and concluded there is no hope in reforming mainstream institutional Christianity. It must be torn down or abandoned, and a new work done where Christ is central, even above Scripture, Christ is central.

It's interesting to note the original publisher of Pagan Christianity I believe is seedsowers(dot)com Google it. Some earlier books were written that contain much of the same things in Pagan Christianity.
 
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dayhiker

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I've heard the type of thoughts put forth since I was in my 20's. These things aren't a big deal to me. I can love Jesus in a pew, sitting on the floor or standing. Same applies for the other listed pagan ideas. Very few of the list are actually commended for us not to do.

I also think that pagan people and things can be redeemed for the use of and for God. This is probably the biggest complaint I'd have on this type of thinking. It limits what Christ's salvation can redeem and use for His glory.

Now if one has a personal desire for the intimate connection that a home church gives with the caring, friendship and support that is often found in a home church than state that. Its a valid personal preference. Clearly lines up with what we see written about in the Bible. But for those that want that, I've seen it in a church as well. I think its harder to do in a church building with a lot of people, but can be done there. I have done it there.
 
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Linda Panera

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It seemed to me that Mr. Voila was reacting to things that were culturally meaningful or culturally practical in the time that they were initiated. Such as pews. This was a practical and pretty way to get a lot of people comfortably into a building. Is it pagan? Steeples. Pagan? I think that steeples are pretty and have no meaning today other than an architectural denotation of a church building.

To confuse church building with church people-together seems elementary.

I wasn't crazy about the book though I like a lot of other things that Mr. Viola has written.
 
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Norah63

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Yeah, pews stink! (sorry bout that) It just fit so well. :)
Home groups have a hard time with that same thing. Ever go and sit on the wrong end of the sofa,
or at 'that' chair you didnt know was just for Sally, Joe, whoever? Most of the first repentance in home groups is a detox of churchanity.
We may feel hungry for more spiritual food, yet need to learn the basics of caring and thinking about others before we can develop more gifts.
Just getting honest with each other goes a long way.
 
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dayhiker

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Ya, singing in rows in a choir standing or sitting in pews to sing as a church doesn't much matter to me, it works for corporate worship. Ya, I don't get to know people that way, but that's not my goal in a church service. I love the worship and hearing the sermon. I always make it a point to find someone after the service and take 5 to 15 mins with for some fellowship.

I do a home group for the intimate stuff. We do no singing, have great personal sharing and discussions.
 
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Norah63

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The pagan part of christianity is just tradition in place of the living Spirit.
It can be in home groups just like community church settings.
Same people, diffrent location.
Untill christians repent and desire more, voting with their feet, nothing will change.
Comfort, staying in the boat, produces lazy results.
We all need to wake up, get more honest, cry out repentance.
Speak out against wrong, by saying the truth.
Today they have substituted 'mistake' sin or faults.
Offer up a sacrafice of risk, we might surprise ourselves.
Pardon me, i was just preaching to myself. :)
 
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humanbn

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Seems like Frank Viola may of gotten some of his material from a book called Revolution, story of the early church.

It's published by seedsowers.com, which was the first publishing company to publish Pagan Christianity years ago before I think tyndale publishes it now.

Lots of good reads from that publisher, seedsowers.
I found pagan christianity first, then seedsowers books.
 
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dagiffy

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Hey brother John NZ

Read it a few years ago, and for the most part liked it.

Also Frank Viola and some 'house church' organization (if you can really call it that) here in Canada had a conference with Frank as the 'key speaker'.

We had many from our 'house church' there for the meetings, and were surprised at how many were in attendance.

What we found was that we ended up sharing our experiences over and over again to many interested ears - as it seemed there were the majority wanting to learn more and perhaps try it or get into it, and we were of the few that have been following the LORD like this for years. Saying all that, from what I've read about you, you've been at it much longer than me.

-eric

I was "lucky" I guess. When He finally convinced me that the way to the intimacy I had before I ever "went-to-church" was to stop practicing the IC method and walk with Him, I thought I was alone stepping out into the wilderness on faith.

When I eventually found a group of people meeting together it didn't take long to see that when He is teaching, it makes every sermon and bible study you ever heard seem as dry straw.

He alone taught me, and us, the "way" to do house church. One rule: listen to Him and heed Him. Over the next few months I was radically transformed back into the kind of believer I was before I started making church services my vehicle to godliness and growth.

Everyone called it "unlearning". But oh do you learn, too. By the time I found out about Frank Viola I thought it amusing, almost offensive, that someone would write a book about "house church" when The Pastor Himself, Jesus Christ, was present, ready, and available to lead His sheep where He wanted them to go. Why isn't anyone asking Him?

I guess I can't speak for everyone, and I'm not trying to be mean, but Frank Viola is just a guy following God, one member of the body. He doesn't know what you need to learn or how you need to be taught.

Sit with Jesus and find others who know Him and talk with Him and are taught by Him; if you are like me you won't see the need to read another book again. One hour with Him in the morning is worth more than every church service I ever watched from the pew.
 
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Johnnz

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Hey John, I know of a house church in NZ....

Do you know someone named Jenny in one?

Hi,

Sorry to take so long to reply.

No, I don't know a Jenny in a house church. Unfortunately, they tend to be under he radar. I will get a web site up one day and see what can be done to assist with liaison.

John
NZ
 
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ezeric

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I was "lucky" I guess. When He finally convinced me that the way to the intimacy I had before I ever "went-to-church" was to stop practicing the IC method and walk with Him, I thought I was alone stepping out into the wilderness on faith.

When I eventually found a group of people meeting together it didn't take long to see that when He is teaching, it makes every sermon and bible study you ever heard seem as dry straw.

He alone taught me, and us, the "way" to do house church. One rule: listen to Him and heed Him. Over the next few months I was radically transformed back into the kind of believer I was before I started making church services my vehicle to godliness and growth.

Everyone called it "unlearning". But oh do you learn, too. By the time I found out about Frank Viola I thought it amusing, almost offensive, that someone would write a book about "house church" when The Pastor Himself, Jesus Christ, was present, ready, and available to lead His sheep where He wanted them to go. Why isn't anyone asking Him?

I guess I can't speak for everyone, and I'm not trying to be mean, but Frank Viola is just a guy following God, one member of the body. He doesn't know what you need to learn or how you need to be taught.

Sit with Jesus and find others who know Him and talk with Him and are taught by Him; if you are like me you won't see the need to read another book again. One hour with Him in the morning is worth more than every church service I ever watched from the pew.

I agree.

And you do learn tons, just letting HIM speak to you everywhere you go and by faith expect HIM to.

JESUS reminds us that the SPIRIT will come (and is here) who will lead us into all TRUTH (as Truth is a person - JESUS).

And HE really does! Praise the LORD.

Also, thank-you for emailing me as well Dagiffy, bless you brother.

-eric
 
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