Overreaching gay rights movement; Indiana's religious freedom act

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Aldebaran

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Either that or the baker who sold the cake wasn't a homophobic twerp.

Now, don't be flaming!

And what is a "gay-themed decoration"?

I guess you haven't been paying attention.


So you, personally (not that I asked) would willingly participate in a gay-themed marriage, being complicit and in approval of it, just so long as you didn't decorate anything "gay" on the cake itself?

Not willing at all. Just forced by government.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Now, don't be flaming!

Unless you sold the cake, I'm not flaming anyone.

I guess you haven't been paying attention.

I guess you have't said much.

Not willing at all. Just forced by government.

You wouldn't exercise your religious privilege and object?

Government or no government, you're doing it willingly.
 
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Aldebaran

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Government or no government, you're doing it willingly.

Really? Would you tell a guy who had the IRS threatening him to either pay up or go to jail that if he pays up, he did it willingly? How about a bank teller who is told by a robber with a gun, "Hand over the money or die!", did teller hand over the money willingly?
 
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TLK Valentine

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Really? Would you tell a guy who had the IRS threatening him to either pay up or go to jail that if he pays up, he did it willingly? How about a bank teller who is told by a robber with a gun, "Hand over the money or die!", did teller hand over the money willingly?

How about the God who tells you to worship Him or go to hell -- do you worship Him willingly?

Doing something in order to avoid the consequences of not doing it is still doing it willingly.
 
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Aldebaran

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How about the God who tells you to worship Him or go to hell -- do you worship Him willingly?

He tells us to return to him. He doesn't demand we worship Him willingly or unwillingly. We do it because we recognize what He has done for us. "We" meaning Christians, of course.

Somehow, I get the feeling that this is not what you really care about, so why not just get to the point?

Doing something in order to avoid the consequences of not doing it is still doing it willingly.

Then I guess the bank teller who handed over the money to the robber should be held responsible for the bank's loss since she "willingly" handed it over to the robber, who was "willingly" robbing the bank.
 
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Skaloop

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Aldebaran said:
He tells us to return to him. He doesn't demand we worship Him willingly or unwillingly. We do it because we recognize what He has done for us. "We" meaning Christians, of course. Somehow, I get the feeling that this is not what you really care about, so why not just get to the point? Then I guess the bank teller who handed over the money to the robber should be held responsible for the bank's loss since she "willingly" handed it over to the robber, who was "willingly" robbing the bank.

Should the children of the bank teller and/or robber be held responsible for the robbery?
 
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bhsmte

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[
QUOTE=Aldebaran;67319756]He tells us to return to him. He doesn't demand we worship Him willingly or unwillingly. We do it because we recognize what He has done for us. "We" meaning Christians, of course.

If there is no demand, why such a strict penalty if you don't worship him?

Now, I know you will say people have a choice to worship him, as the baker has the choice to bake a cake for all his customers.
 
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TLK Valentine

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He tells us to return to him. He doesn't demand we worship Him willingly or unwillingly. We do it because we recognize what He has done for us. "We" meaning Christians, of course.

And if you don't...?

Somehow, I get the feeling that this is not what you really care about, so why not just get to the point?

My point is what I said it was -- We willingly make choices, knowing that those choices have consequences.

if we can worship God (or not) willingly, we can also obey the law (or not) willingly.

Then I guess the bank teller who handed over the money to the robber should be held responsible for the bank's loss since she "willingly" handed it over to the robber, who was "willingly" robbing the bank.

She would be held responsible -- except that banks "willingly" instruct their employees to always cooperate with robbers.

Many businesses have similar rules; there have been cases of business employees heroically foiling would-be robbers, only to be fired by their bosses for noncompliance.
 
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David Brider

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If you mean a gay-themed one based on its decorations, yes.

A wedding cake is a wedding cake. In all the cases I'm aware of in which a baker has refused service to a same-sex couple, no mention has been made of any decorations. Just of the baker refusing to provide any cake at all.

(How, in your opinion, would a straight-themed cake differ from a gay-themed cake anyway?)
 
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Aldebaran

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"May be?" So the argument is based on speculation?

You could call any future case "speculation" if we're not talking about a specific one in the past. Pretty much the same as all the "speculation" people have been making about the Indiana law opening the door to making black people sit in the back of the bus.
 
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Aldebaran

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Example to illustrate what you are discussing above?

I was talking about customers asking a baker to bake a cake for a homosexual wedding ceremony. I'm sure you've heard examples of this already in this thread (and other threads). That's what we've been talking about all along.
 
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NotreDame

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I was talking about customers asking a baker to bake a cake for a homosexual wedding ceremony. I'm sure you've heard examples of this already in this thread (and other threads). That's what we've been talking about all along.

Yes but I am seeking to know specifically what examples or hypotheticals, if any, you have pondered in making your statement?
 
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TLK Valentine

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I was talking about customers asking a baker to bake a cake for a homosexual wedding ceremony. I'm sure you've heard examples of this already in this thread (and other threads). That's what we've been talking about all along.

So, a wedding.
 
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AirPo

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You could call any future case "speculation" if we're not talking about a specific one in the past. Pretty much the same as all the "speculation" people have been making about the Indiana law opening the door to making black people sit in the back of the bus.
You could also call any future case science fiction. No, the Indiana law had nothing to do with black people.
 
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Aldebaran

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You could also call any future case science fiction. No, the Indiana law had nothing to do with black people.

Tell that to all those here who cried and moaned about how the Indiana law is going to put America back to the pre-civil rights era. They were envisioning all kinds of nightmare scenarios.
 
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