Overreaching gay rights movement; Indiana's religious freedom act (2)

[ObamaChristian]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Overreaching gay rights movement; Indiana's religious freedom act"

 

[Aldebaran]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Overreaching gay rights movement; Indiana's religious freedom act"

Oh look! We get to continue bickering about this for another 1,000 posts! YES!!!

 

[TLK Valentine]

According to TLK, she would be a willing participant if she doesn't fight him, at least that's the impression he's putting out there.

Well, that's your first twisting of my words in this post...

He already tried to tell me that if a person does anything, then it's done "willingly" since nobody can force you to do anything.

And that's your second.

Start reading in this thread on page 97 starting at post #962 to see what I mean.

That's the last thing you want people to do -- but at least exposing your own falsehoods saves me the trouble of doing it to you.

Meanwhile, you say people are "forced" to comply with the law, but why then do so many choose not to?

Clearly, they're not being "forced" very hard.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You could ask me about every situation under the sun. Is it my opinion here that is of so much value to everyone?

No, and that's the point. As the baker or the florist, your opinion of the couple, their marriage, the wedding reception, the bridal party, the guests, and so on, does not matter. All that matters is that you do your job competently. You are not paid for your opinion. You are not paid to deliver a sermon on marriage and its theological significance in your religion. You are not paid to offer your blessings to the couple's union. None of that falls under the purview of your role in the entire affair. So when a gay couple asks you to bake them a cake just as you would for any other couple, don't for a moment think that they are asking you for your opinion of them and their marriage.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, and that's the point. As the baker or the florist, your opinion of the couple, their marriage, the wedding reception, the bridal party, the guests, and so on, does not matter. All that matters is that you do your job competently.

Uh, if I'm the owner, then who are you to tell me what my job is? Before you tell me "The customer is the boss", let me save you the trouble by informing you that the owner is the one who gets to decide how to run his own business.

 

[Aldebaran]

Well, that's your first twisting of my words in this post...



And that's your second.



That's the last thing you want people to do -- but at least exposing your own falsehoods saves me the trouble of doing it to you.

Let the reader decide.

Meanwhile, you say people are "forced" to comply with the law, but why then do so many choose not to?

Clearly, they're not being "forced" very hard.

You don't understand what "force of law" means, do you?

 

[bhsmte]

.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Uh, if I'm the owner, then who are you to tell me what my job is?

I'm not telling you what your job is. If you're a baker, then it's already clear what your job is. I'm telling you what your job isn't.

Before you tell me "The customer is the boss", let me save you the trouble by informing you that the owner is the one who gets to decide how to run his own business.

Yes, so long as he or she complies with the law.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm not telling you what your job is. If you're a baker, then it's already clear what your job is. I'm telling you what your job isn't.

You're also telling me what decisions to make.

Yes, so long as he or she complies with the law.

What does the thread title say? This is about changing the law so that business owners have more freedom.

 

[bhsmte]

You're also telling me what decisions to make.

Didn't the baker already make a decision to sell cakes to the public, when he opened a bakery open to the public?

 

[Aldebaran]

Didn't the baker already make a decision to sell cakes to the public, when he opened a bakery open to the public?

It doesn't mean that the decision was without limits.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You're also telling me what decisions to make.

I'm telling you to do your (hypothetical) job. Is it really too much to ask?

What does the thread title say? This is about changing the law so that business owners have more freedom.

Freedom to discriminate. Let's be clear about what this "freedom" is. You want to be able to discriminate against certain members of the public and invoke your religion as an excuse.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm telling you to do your (hypothetical) job. Is it really too much to ask?

That's not your place to do that.

Freedom to discriminate. Let's be clear about what this "freedom" is. You want to be able to discriminate against certain members of the public and invoke your religion as an excuse.

Here we go again with the word-twisting.
Freedom to choose what things to do, based on conscience. Do you understand conscience?

 

[Skaloop]

Here we go again with the word-twisting.
Freedom to choose what things to do, based on conscience. Do you understand conscience?

Are you really suggesting that people should be able to freely act according to their conscience?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's not your place to do that.

When you're confused about what your role actually is, yes, it is my place to let you know.

Here we go again with the word-twisting.
Freedom to choose what things to do, based on conscience. Do you understand conscience?

If your conscience prevents you from operating a bakery to members of the public, then don't do it. This isn't my problem, but yours.

 

[Aldebaran]

Are you really suggesting that people should be able to freely act according to their conscience?

No, I'm suggesting that the government and other people should tell us what to do at every step because individuals do not know what is best for them and need to be treated like children from cradle to grave.

 

[Aldebaran]

When you're confused about what your role actually is, yes, it is my place to let you know.

I haven't expressed any confusion. I've simply told you what my decision would be in a given case. However, you appear very confused about my intention.

If your conscience prevents you from operating a bakery to members of the public, then don't do it. This isn't my problem, but yours.

It actually doesn't. It just prevents me from doing something that I view as being wrong for me to do.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, I'm suggesting that the government and other people should tell us what to do at every step because individuals do not know what is best for them and need to be treated like children from cradle to grave.

Being treated like a child is exactly what you are asking for. You want a paternalistic government to step in on your behalf and scold the other kids in the playground for having the audacity to play in the same sandpit as you. Because you're special. Don't the other kids know that?

 

[Aldebaran]

Being treated like a child is exactly what you are asking for. You want a paternalistic government to step in on your behalf and scold the other kids in the playground for having the audacity to play in the same sandpit as you. Because you're special. Don't the other kids know that?

Well, I guess I better let the Archy guy on the internet boss me around then. He even tells me my intentions, my needs, and that I'm special. Nice to know.

 

[Skaloop]

No, I'm suggesting that the government and other people should tell us what to do at every step because individuals do not know what is best for them and need to be treated like children from cradle to grave.

Sarcasm noted. But seriously, do you really think people should be free to act according to their conscience?