Overly Simplistic

[Tenebrae]

One thing I have been struggling with alot lately is that alot of theology seems to be overly simplistic and doesnt often address the much more complex issues.

One that immediately springs to mind is the subject of mental illness. I recall being told when I was in the midst of a major depressive episode that i should simply put on worship music, and pray. Since working in mental health and dealing with clients with some very complex issues, eg alcohol and drug dependence, sexual and physical abuse, loss of custody of children as well as major mental illness I've realised that effectively dealing with something like mental illness and emotional issues is much more complex and requires more than a glib answer some real intensive work and support.

How about you? Have you encountered overly simplistic theology that really doesnt go anywhere near explaining the difficult situations? How does deal with that.

Thoughts opinions, welcome.

 

[Faulty]

I don't have enough faith, or really any faith, in much of the counseling that goes on these days. It strikes me that they are always trying to look for excuses as to why people are depressed, on drugs, on alcohol, are abusive to those they love, or whatever.

So I suppose I might be part of what you consider part of the problem as I tend to see all that as the expected and natural fruit of sin. It's not the circumstances of life that leads people to these things in themselves, but rather the circumstances become a catalyst for the sin nature to produce these bad fruits.

If the person becomes forgiven, and knows they are, and they continue mature spiritually, these bad fruit go away, being replaced with good fruit. I expect this kind of stuff in the unregenerate. As I always say, dogs bark, ducks quack, and sinners sin. And it's important we help them where they hurt. Provide to them comfort and care and compassion, these are very, very important, but at the same time, we cannot neglect what we know about sin and teach to them the real remedy is available to them.

And all this may not be a bad thing. Some people need to become broken before they turn to God, and some of what we see might actually be God doing a work in their lives, bringing them into that state of brokenness.


That said, unfortunately I think the salvation message has become over-simplified. A preacher says, "Did you repeat the prayer I said or raise your hand? Good. You're saved", and they may be, but they may not and could spend their whole lives thinking so, but not having no real repentance or any of the characteristics of a real believer, and not know enough to recognize the difference unfortunately.

That said, I think a lot of people will end up in hell, surprisingly to them, because of the false security sold to them be some well-meaning but naive preacher. There are many who will be professing believers, calling Him 'Lord, Lord', on their judgment day, because they really thought they were, and to make matters worse, these people are also shown to be very active ministry members.

Quite honestly, that scripture haunts me day and night and as a result I've really become sensitive to those who profess to be in the church body, but are not. It's a real burden for me, an that's really at the root of why I point things out as unscriptural (and take heat for it). That passage, and those like it are forever in my mind, and all I can think of is "Beware! Beware! Be watchful!" because the wolves can be very difficult to spot.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective and ideology. A bias could lead one to accept or deny the truth that is often very "one-sided" while ignoring the other. Many disability obstacles such as discrimination, attitudes, ignorance, stereotyping, or alienation are still around by all of us whether we realized them or not. Stereotypes, biases, and misconceptions leap into one’s mind. Stereotyping has created by showing incorrect judgment of a possibility by making people into stereotypes that leads to myths. My step-daughter was born with cerebral palsy as well as mild retardation due to seizures when she was a child. We just want a special needs service for my daughter who has cerebral palsy with low IQ. She loves going to Church and she very much wants to go to Sunday School. She is smart enough to understand God and loves God. I was born with deafness and later in life I was diagnosed with MS. My blood daughter have bipolar and other disorder disabilities.

The Bible teaches us to bear the burdens of someone with a disability fulfills a command of scripture (Galatians 6:2). 2 Samuel 9:3-4 tells the story of David’s kindness to Mephibosheth, the lame son of Jonathan, modeling the way the church should minister.

This is from my journal:
The fact of the matter is the visible providence of God has no respector (discriminate) of persons. I arrived naked from the womb of my mother; I will leave in the same condition--with nothing. Ecclesiastes 3:2: "a time to be born and a time to die". What made God decided that I was born on December 11th? Why am I living this way? God is adjusting my history according to His purposes. He knows what He's doing that I have to learn to trust His will, His power, and His timing when the time is right, and not until then. That's the essence of real faith. God carries out His will in His perfect power and timing. My own growing pains were different than others. Some may be worst than others.

Many Christians and churches are struggling with this. Some churches (mostly liberal) are doing better than others. I have found some churches who have strong ministries with disabilities but at the same time I found that I don't agree with their theology. One of many reasons why I am a Lutheran (the conservative one, not liberal). They have wonderful disabilities ministries including deaf ministry.

Many churches that believes in healing are also discriminating and not focusing on what God has commanded. The Apostle Paul wrote, "We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves" (Romans 15:1) that we are to bear them, or bear with them in their weakness because of an inability to make out the details of deep theology which can be frustrating for some.

 

[JSGuitarist]

How about you? Have you encountered overly simplistic theology that really doesnt go anywhere near explaining the difficult situations? How does deal with that.

Thoughts opinions, welcome.

I've found that saying "Christ died for you" doesn't say enough for a person to understand what the blood did. For some it might, but I needed to know just how it worked. I had a friend like that yesterday who wasn't sure about how it is that he is righteous before God, and felt that he had to try and make himself presentable. He has a true hate for his sin from what I can see. The answer for him was for him to learn just how the blood of Christ atoned for sins, and the details behind it. That was a great comfort for him.

 

[msbojingles]

I've found that saying "Christ died for you" doesn't say enough for a person to understand what the blood did. For some it might, but I needed to know just how it worked. I had a friend like that yesterday who wasn't sure about how it is that he is righteous before God, and felt that he had to try and make himself presentable. He has a true hate for his sin from what I can see. The answer for him was for him to learn just how the blood of Christ atoned for sins, and the details behind it. That was a great comfort for him.

I have found the same thing. Maybe I ask too many questions, but the things I find in the Bible have to make sense to me. Just saying, "Jesus died for you" doesn't even come close to making sense for a lot of people. I, too, needed to understand the Blood - something the Lord is still opening up to me.

Re: OP

Yes, sometimes I find the theological answers on either extreme: either overly simplistic, or so complicated it makes no sense.

I think sometimes people rely TOO MUCH on their own experience and try to diagnose someone's problem, when only God has the answer. I went through a really rough period for quite some time and was given the same answers, "listen to worship music" or "just keep praying about it". I suppose to a certain extent I did do those things, but they were already things I had tried. Not only that, but then these same people who appeared to be offering their compassion expected me to give more out of myself than I had to give. I just could not live up to the expectation they were giving me, which drained me even more. I definitely wasn't suicidal or anything but certainly was in a place where I just wished everything would STOP.

I can't pinpoint exactly what moment things began to change, but I know God did do it. He heard the cry of my [very broken] heart. He was so patient, and didn't require anything of me, which is good in every sense of the word because the truth is I didn't even trust Him. Somehow through no good work of my own I was able to "let" Him in, so to speak, and He began healing the broken mess. It was His Love that did it, but for me to try to tell someone else how it happened or how it can happen for them - I just don't even know how.

That was a very long way of saying sometimes, I think, people want to have all the answers and just end up frustrating others giving them answers they don't need.

 

[lismore]

I have found the same thing. Maybe I ask too many questions, but the things I find in the Bible have to make sense to me.

I'm with you on that. I guess I'm just too curious for Christian circles. I ask a lot of questions, these open up more questions, people can get frustrated and ask me if I'm really in the club!!! Don't ask, just believe!!

As regards mental illness, people will give an overly simplistic answer to things they havent themselves experienced.

 

[upinarms]

Here a new one that happean this sunday. someone who use to come and meet with our group told another person that "they love me to much and don't condem me and it makes me fill bad. If they would only just call me a sinner like the rest I would go." Now that's a mental thing, Wanting to be called srum.

 

[heron]

I know a family that has tried to start up special needs ministries in several churches, because everywhere they took their child, they struggled with the same issue.

Sadly, even when they tried to start the program and drum up interest, they ran across obstacles. They finally decided to start an official class, for their daughter and anyone else in a reserved room ... in faith. The mother was aggressive in recruiting help, but I think it still fell apart.

I know of another church that has shared the care of a strongly autistic child for decades. Through the entire childhood, members took turns sitting with the child during the service, and steering them out in the narthex when needed.

I think the job of the pastor is already so complex, that adding this is more than they think they can handle. It either needs to be done by the congregation, or the church needs to hire someone who is trained in accessibility and compliance... to make sure all bases are covered legally.

I have seen a number of churches with weekly sign language interpreters; these are usually people who have volunteered to do it because of their convictions that it needs to be offered.

But as for speaking out about it from the pulpit, I only remember one sermon covering disabilities. It was in a country where disabled people were generally kept isolated in their homes, and had few visitors.

Seeing the issue from that perspective, I was grateful to grow up in a predominantly Christian country, where the community confronted needs head-on and tried to make sure all were cared for.

 

[Lively Stone]

God's word can help us deal with any and all situations. I don't understand people who say they are Christians speak about 'theology' not being able to address all situations. Must be that one is going by a book or something.

Jesus is the answer to everything! Holy Spirit wants to come in and overflow you! He is our healer and He has an answer to every circumstance we find ourselves in.

Is that simplistic? You bet! Even in our hardships, He is right there in the middle of it, mitigating the circumstances and going before us, making the rough places smooth.

Have FAITH. Not enough faith? Ask for more! It certainly isn't a failure of 'theology' that one is complaining about---it's a faith issue.

 

[luchsgud]

Yes, things can be oversimplified, but they can be overcomplicated too. Illness is an area in the Church that has been debated for centuries and, quite frankly, no simple answer can be given.

The answer is simple, yes. Its Jesus. But when you look into the answer you will discover many things that are complex to our nature. The answer of Jesus is the answer of relationship, and relationships are never easy or simple. There's a lot of adjusting to do.

In cases where I seem to be over simplifying someone's illness I usually try to refer them to someone else and patiently work through it with them if they will allow it.

Some people are so convinced you don't understand that they tend to block any attempt to encourage them. That's sad.

I overcame a nervous breakdown and depression through faith in Jesus Christ. If that's too simple for you, I'm sorry, but it worked for me.

 

[Lively Stone]

I overcame a nervous breakdown and depression through faith in Jesus Christ. If that's too simple for you, I'm sorry, but it worked for me.

That's my story also. No nervous breakdown, but I spent two years in bed in depression, and the Lord Jesus Christ was present every day in it, and He lifted me out. The only thing that caused it to last so long was me.

 

[Alive_Again]

I'm glad to be answering this in the right forum, where we can be scriptural and speak of our successes in the area of restoration.

Often, many well intended ministers provide simplistic answers to problems due to lack of experience in the areas concerned. You might be told to "be a do'er of the Word" to be blessed in your deed, which would be correct, but for lack of knowledge, God's people perish. This is experiential revelation knowledge, imparted by the Holy Spirit.

For my own part, I dabbled in a lot of different things that bring curses into your life. We know from the Pentateuch, that God visits the iniquity of the fathers on to the children as well. His Word is eternal. Even though we're redeemed from the curse of broken Law in Christ, we often need to appropriate the victory over the enemy, just like we appropriate our redemption from sin through the blood of Jesus, by faith. We need to renounce and break spiritual oppressions from our lives (even as Christians). I know some people can't receive this, but these oppressions come not only from our own sins (which we're redeemed from), but from the sins of our forefathers. Some sins carry curses that last 10 generations. Jesus' lineage had a curse that lasted 10 generations. He was born on the 11th! That blew me away! But all of His "forefathers" in the natural sinned and bore curses.

You'll find that the believers who didn't engage in a lot of oppressive activities don't receive this type of testimony because they didn't engage in the same level of spiritual war as those who did (out of necessity). One problem with that is that there are probably "lower" level oppressions at work effectively reducing that believer's spiritual effectiveness against the enemy. This is because they aren't being dealt with. If as a new believer, or a long time believer who struggles with repetitive sin, know that there is deliverance as one gives heed to God's Word in all areas of our lives.

The Word indicates we are a 3-fold being. Spirit, soul, and body.

The area of the "soul" (what the mind is to the natural body) is often where the battles are engaged. (Your body also.) Psalm 23 indicates that Jesus restores your soul. Other places in scripture tell you to guard your soul, just like your heart. Our "gates" - the eyes, ears, mouth have counterparts in the spirit realm where our souls operate. I've collected quite a few scriptures concerning the soul in an effort to gain a better understanding. It's a worthwhile study since it involves our well being.

Relative to what you were counseled. If we take King Saul and assume he were in New Covenant days, we would know that he was afflicted with evil spirits. He got a measure of relief from their oppression by listening to the anointed music of David. That relief was only temporary as it tormented the tormentor and it/they came back when the music was over. They had a right to continue tormenting Saul because he was in rebellion to God's will.

As a Christian we have authority over demonic oppression in our lives. The prerequisite is to be fully submitted to God. Oppressions only can operate in areas that aren't fully sanctified by God, who allows them to give us some measure of affliction. They'd kill us if they could, because that's what devils do. Everything operates under the system of God's Word, especially in the area of sowing and reaping.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
James 4:7 (KJV)

I'm going to break this up into at least 2 posts, as this subject could get long, as you deserve to partake of the restoration anointing. It's part of the good news. It's already paid for, but it must be appropriated (and we must meet the conditions). Realistically, you need to have God connect you to the right ministers, with the right gifts. There are things you can do in your own life, and their is counseling you can provide others that instructs them to be mindful and to repent of things contrary to God's will. Once people understand affliction/restoration, people can take an active approach to their own deliverance/restoration, as God fulfills His Word without partiality. Cool?

 

[Alive_Again]

<One thing I have been struggling with alot lately is that alot of theology seems to be overly simplistic and doesnt often address the much more complex issues.

Staying under the anointing helps enforce the victory. Anointed music, is just one component of abiding under the anointing (for yourself). Meditate out loud on the Word. Hear anointed preaching.

If you're dealing with others who don't know the Lord, the good news of the gospel, the power of God unto salvation offers hope and shines light into a very dark world.

If you're not in a position to give the Word on your job, what can you tell someone suffering from abuse? That it's going to be alright? Without the Lord, it's not going to be all right.

Certainly some things are caused by chemical imbalances, but most mental health issues that aren't injury related are oppressive spiritual issues. There are no formulas and it's important to rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds.

Sometimes people need to forgive their human oppressors first before they can receive ministry. The anointing breaks the yoke and the Spirit of the Lord will set the captive free. Many times it takes a lot of prayer for the Lord to deal with a person's heart to receive love.

I can't imagine working in a mental health situation without being able to minister under the anointing. Ask for wisdom and believe you'll get it. Cast your cares on the Lord and let Him show you what to do. Be assured that your effectual fervent prayer avails much.

 

[Soar]

I just had an awesome God moment. Was going to post a devil's advocate (bad choice of words in this crowd ) to the Alive_Again and the Holy Spirit totally cleared up a question I had within that thought. Awesome!

So, what I was thinking was in regards to the comment,

We know from the Pentateuch, that God visits the iniquity of the fathers on to the children as well.

I just finished a good book that refrenced this thought of carrying generational curses. The author said that if we are new beings in Christ, how does that curse get carried on to our new selves?

The Pentateuch was OT, as was the 10th generational curse that ended with Jesus. That curse ended with Jesus, and it's from there that we are offered salvation (and the new creation).

However, we see that the book of Peter states baptism (which comes afte salvation, or our new creation) is an appeal for a clean conscience (1 Peter 3:21). So, the baptism by water would be to heal those past sins on our mind in a retroactive manner.

If the sins of our past are carried on to our new self (via our conscience) then why couldn't generational curses, as well as those things, from a spiritual manner, which cause mental illness, addiction, etc.?

This might also help your friend, JSGuitarist, who is struggling with his past misdeeds.

My friend and mentor likes to say, ''We're not sinners anymore, we're saints who sometimes sin''.

 

[Alive_Again]

I have discussed this point with people who argue that as new creatures, we don't need deliverance, soul restoration, etc. as though because the price was paid for our for our freedom that it doesn't need to be enforced.

 

[Arturias]

To the OP:

Simple answers to complex issues often don't work regardless of the source. A biblical answer doesn't have to be simple or glib, but coming up with appropriate responses to complex emotional and mental-health related issues requires maturity and a willingness to invest yourself enough in a person to see them through their difficulties. If you are paying a counselor, or the state is paying a counselor on your behalf, that almost assures the investment will be sufficient.

When the person is a volunteer, oftentimes that is not the case. I've run into a few pastors that had formal training in counselling that were willing to put in the effort it takes, but oftentimes they don't have the understanding or capacity to deal with the complex issues without that training.

I'd advise anyone that is facing some of the issues you describe to seek a Christian counselor that is also certified through some sort of board or state accreditation agency. Less than the appropriate help oftentimes just makes matters worse in my opinion.

 

[Alive_Again]

This may sound overly simple, but Jesus is all the certification you'll ever need. I say this in a supportive way, and don't mean to knock the above recommendation, but many people expect little or no lasting help from the Lord above.

Many churches barely know Him at all. Many ministers deliver the Word in good faith, but do not hear from God, which means no anointing, an no captives getting set free. As a result, our affiliation with these types of churches, we've developed a faith in natural resources, and college training.

God's is also equipping His servants in the "regular" ranks of the saints for service against the enemy. Although some afflictions are chemically based, it's more likely that spiritual oppression is at the root of the problem. Some of the most anointed men and women of God have no college at all, but have gone through the school of the Holy Spirit to break the yoke of the enemy.

While it is possible that a Christian counselor with college training, may operate in the gifts, the seminary training will have little relevance to actually getting set free. There IS help available for those who seriously want to walk in the light of His Word. There's no room for compromise. If you're already oppressed, who else are you going to turn to?

 

[Arturias]

To paint a scenaro, that I've seen repeated:

A person is depressed for a long period of time, or has other mental-health issues. So they receive prayer, and the person praying indeed is led by the Holy Spirit, and the person being prayed for experiences relief, and God moves in the situation. But the cause of the depression (or other mental illness) is not removed from the persons life. And so, in spite of the prayer, the problems come back, and it seems worse to them because now it seems to them that God couldn't really help them all that much.

Oftentimes people need more than just on-the-spot prayer. They need someone to help them through a process, to remove what is causing the problem.

If the issue is sinful thinking, they need to learn a different way to think. If the issue is coping with personal tragedy, they need to learn different ways to cope with personal tragedy that are God-inspired approaches.

I think you misunderstand me, Alive-again. I think the spirit-led approach is best. I haven't seen very many that use it be willing to persist through with it till a person is whole and healthy.

Sometimes healing takes more than one prayer. I think God wants us to persist in our prayer for each other sometimes, as a form of Godly love for each other. If I pray for someone, and it helps them, but they still have issues, so I continue working with them and praying for them to help them work through the complexities of the situation, good has resulted.

Instant wholeness and healing is wonderful when it happens, and I've seen it happen, like for example in cases of demonic possession, but it doesn't always happen. Sometimes it happens that the Evangelist has moved on to having a meeting in the next city, and the person with the problems is left with their problems.

It's worth a lot to be willing to persist in prayer.

 

[Lively Stone]

To paint a scenaro, that I've seen repeated:

A person is depressed for a long period of time, or has other mental-health issues. So they receive prayer, and the person praying indeed is led by the Holy Spirit, and the person being prayed for experiences relief, and God moves in the situation. But the cause of the depression (or other mental illness) is not removed from the persons life. And so, in spite of the prayer, the problems come back, and it seems worse to them because now it seems to them that God couldn't really help them all that much.

Oftentimes people need more than just on-the-spot prayer. They need someone to help them through a process, to remove what is causing the problem.

If the issue is sinful thinking, they need to learn a different way to think. If the issue is coping with personal tragedy, they need to learn different ways to cope with personal tragedy that are God-inspired approaches.

I think you misunderstand me, Alive-again. I think the spirit-led approach is best. I haven't seen very many that use it be willing to persist through with it till a person is whole and healthy.

Sometimes healing takes more than one prayer. I think God wants us to persist in our prayer for each other sometimes, as a form of Godly love for each other. If I pray for someone, and it helps them, but they still have issues, so I continue working with them and praying for them to help them work through the complexities of the situation, good has resulted.

Instant wholeness and healing is wonderful when it happens, and I've seen it happen, like for example in cases of demonic possession, but it doesn't always happen. Sometimes it happens that the Evangelist has moved on to having a meeting in the next city, and the person with the problems is left with their problems.

It's worth a lot to be willing to persist in prayer.

Amen...yes, it takes time sometimes to appropriate the healing we already have in the spiritual. It is the mind (the soul component) that blocks or rejects and also must receive before it can take effect.

I've been there, and I am still there with regard to the depression issue. Good and true post, Arturias.

 

[Alive_Again]

<A person is depressed for a long period of time, or has other mental-health issues. So they receive prayer, and the person praying indeed is led by the Holy Spirit, and the person being prayed for experiences relief, and God moves in the situation. But the cause of the depression (or other mental illness) is not removed from the persons life. And so, in spite of the prayer, the problems come back, and it seems worse to them because now it seems to them that God couldn't really help them all that much.

I understand. I'm really referring to receive ministry from those gifted to discern the problem at the root. This is done by hearing God. He knows more than anyone. Even a "regular" Christian counselor might pour through hours of answered questions, and only deal with symptoms. The enemy might even manifest to take you off the trail of the real cause. Jesus didn't judge by the hearing of the ear. (That's all a carnal counselor has to go by.) Our words do locate us though. Accurate judging by the Spirit brings to light the hidden things of darkness. It's the best thing you could ever benefit from, and it's free (unlike some Christian counselors).

<Oftentimes people need more than just on-the-spot prayer. They need someone to help them through a process, to remove what is causing the problem.

Right! Many times the Lord provides a measure of deliverance, depending on what you're ready to walk in. It's our disobedience to His Word that causes our aflictions. We're a garden of plantings by our own words, judgments, and deeds, what the enemy throws in, and somewhat by the deeds of our forefathers. I haven't met anyone who didn't have to walk out their salvation (including deliverance).

If the issue is sinful thinking, they need to learn a different way to think. If the issue is coping with personal tragedy, they need to learn different ways to cope with personal tragedy that are God-inspired approaches.

<I think you misunderstand me, Alive-again. I think the spirit-led approach is best. I haven't seen very many that use it be willing to persist through with it till a person is whole and healthy.

Good. Too bad. Effective ministry surprisingly is rarer than the need for it. If you believe God in prayer to find it, He'll draw someone gifted to you, if you're willing to humble yourself, and open up.

<Sometimes healing takes more than one prayer. I think God wants us to persist in our prayer for each other sometimes, as a form of Godly love for each other.

Right on!

<Instant wholeness and healing is wonderful when it happens, and I've seen it happen, like for example in cases of demonic possession, but it doesn't always happen. Sometimes it happens that the Evangelist has moved on to having a meeting in the next city, and the person with the problems is left with their problems.

Someone said that an Evangelist is like a mercenary. He moves in for the rescue and then goes on to another victory. I wouldn't rely on Evangelists for this reason. You might get a bit here, and more there. We have to walk in obedience, and as a reward, we receive greater liberty. God does promise this and He's been impressing not to preach (what we think is ) the Gospel of Job or Paul, but the Words of Jesus.

I would say at a minimum, the person in question should belong to a Spirit filled church, submitting to a pastor, with a desire to change and give glory to God. Let God take us out of the world and say goodbye to our worldly friends. There's no fellowship with darkness and light. God will give grace to do all of these things.