Outreach to Atheists

[SupernovaK]

When Christ said, "anyone who drinks of the water I shall give him, he shall never thirst again," He was referring to the things of this world never satisfying the soul and life.

The water that Christ gives is represented by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit through faith in Christ brings spiritual life, or better known as eternal life.

The soul of man is dead in trespass and sin. It is the Holy Spirit through Christ that brings the water of life.

If I was a Christian in my youth, then I had "the holy spirit" but obviously I don't now as an atheist. You may argue that I was never a Christian, and certainly that is a common tactic I hear, though it's obviously not convincing to me -- I know better. It's just denial. Feel free to say it out loud to yourself if you need to hear it. I don't need to hear it.

So why do you think that your interpretation is correct? Biblehub.com, a site filled with commentaries from believing Christians, think it refers to the wisdom of the bible. John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life." I think they're a bit unbiased in this argument (as their interpretation came before it), and probably a source that you'd generally agree with when you don't need the verse to mean something specific for this argument. So why do you think that they're wrong but you're right?

 

[SupernovaK]

No, I do in fact approach people in environments where I am expecting to have good conversation (the street is a good place - people are relaxed, the topic is easy to raise in a casual manner).

I always work in collaboration with The Holy Spirit in them. If I sense that they are becoming uncooperative, then I recognise that a discussion will not be conducive. It is best to shut down those conversations quickly before casualty happens, and allow The Holy Spirit to make use of what was said over time, that maybe He will have another opportunity to build upon it when the heat of the moment has subsided (most likely with a different person).

Jesus had a discussion with Satan in the wilderness, quoting the bible in response to Satan's tests. Do you that was an "environment [for a] good conversation"? Do you think that it was conducive and convinced Satan that he was wrong? I don't understand this premise, that one should only discuss matters with those who will be easily impressed and knocked over by the weakest arguments. I personally think my arguments are good, which is why I'd happily pose them to anyone, no matter how they respond. It's true that there are people who won't be persuaded... in fact, it's typical. But a "good" case stands up against an opposing case. I'm sure we'd all love to be lawyers in a courtroom where the other side doesn't even have representation, but that's not quite a fair fight and it's obvious why your arguments would win there. Your arguments should be strong enough to persuade an unbiased observer who hears both sides, and those are the people that I expect to win over.

 

[Silmarien]

So why are Christians here? Shouldn't you be dominating the threads of other forums, trying to evangelize? Your bible commands you to do so, and most of you (I imagine) feel as confident in your beliefs, so why aren't you testing them on people who disagree with you rather than people who won't try to poke holes in your arguments?

Most of the Christians around here are either looking for Christian fellowship or interested in debating theology with each other. Their lives do not revolve around trying to convert people. Being an atheist does not make you the center of the world. Accept that and move on.

 

[Charlie24]

If I was a Christian in my youth, then I had "the holy spirit" but obviously I don't now as an atheist. You may argue that I was never a Christian, and certainly that is a common tactic I hear, though it's obviously not convincing to me -- I know better. It's just denial. Feel free to say it out loud to yourself if you need to hear it. I don't need to hear it.

So why do you think that your interpretation is correct? Biblehub.com, a site filled with commentaries from believing Christians, think it refers to the wisdom of the bible. John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life." I think they're a bit unbiased in this argument (as their interpretation came before it), and probably a source that you'd generally agree with when you don't need the verse to mean something specific for this argument. So why do you think that they're wrong but you're right?

For me, the Word is not only in my mouth, it lives in my heart. I know the Christian life is real, it has completely changed my life.

As far as interpretation, that's a cop out on your part. It's a diversion to escape the truth of Gods word. Whether I'm right or they are right, there is not a hill of beans difference in the translation. Especially in this well known piece of scripture.

Your mind is made up and you're wasting my time. Your life no doubt is a mess and you come here to slam God through those that trust Him.

When you care to discuss how to change your life and have peace with God and man, let me know, I will be happy to talk with you.

 

[xianghua]

I genuinely think my point-of-view, that there is insufficient evidence for the existence of a god (yours or anyone else's), is the correct one and because of that I feel pretty confident debating that point with people who don't agree with me.

as for the evidence for god existence check this one: My favorite argument for the existence of God

 

[ViaCrucis]

So why are Christians here? Shouldn't you be dominating the threads of other forums, trying to evangelize? Your bible commands you to do so, and most of you (I imagine) feel as confident in your beliefs, so why aren't you testing them on people who disagree with you rather than people who won't try to poke holes in your arguments?

Well, simple answer: It's not my--or any Christian's--job to make converts, or bash our religion over anyone's head. If I went on a Muslim forum and started beating my religion over everyone's head there I would not be preaching the Gospel or engaging in evangelism--I would simply be a jerk disrupting people trying to have a discussion. It would be rude, unkind, and fundamentally un-Christian.

Because the truth is that not all Christians have the concept of "evangelism" that many modern Fundamentalists and Evangelicals have. We don't view the preaching of the Gospel as us going out and arguing people to become Christians, because that simply isn't (and never has been) part of our theology.

It is probably important to point out that I'm a Lutheran, and the Lutheran view is that faith isn't something that can be forced upon a person, I can't make someone trust in Christ--whether through rhetoric, argument, reason, or force. That's simply not possible because faith, in the Lutheran understanding, is a supernatural gift from God. I can't make someone a Christian, I can't bring a person to Jesus, I can't "win souls" for Jesus--because I don't have magic powers and it's not my job. In Lutheranism we confess that faith, as a gift from God, is something the Holy Spirit--God--does; He works through what we call the Means of Grace, the Word and Sacraments of Jesus, to bring and create faith in us. As such I cannot make you a Christian, or make you believe. It's not my job to go preaching at people, or beating anyone over the head with the Bible, or try and convince you or anyone else that what I believe is true. That's simply not part of my calling as a Christian. My calling as a Christian is to trust in Jesus, and to serve my neighbor in love; every person has a vocation--a place in life in relation to others. Whether as a child, a parent, a sibling, a friend, a doctor, a fast-food worker, a person on the street. Regardless of where we are in life, we find ourselves in relation to our fellow human beings and have a calling to serve and love them. One is not a Christian shoe-maker because they affix little crosses to shoes, but because they make shoes to clothe the feet of those who need shoes.

Being a Christian does not mean busting into your house and beating you over the head with a Bible. It means that if I see you in need I should be willing to give to you if I am able, for no other reason than because it is right and loving to do so. And should you have interest in my religion, I would be more than happy to share with you what I believe--if you decide what I believe is stupid, then you are free to think what I believe is stupid, if you show further interest, I am willing to point you in the direction to continue learning; in either event my job isn't to convert you, but to hopefully recognize it as a privilege to love and serve you as a fellow human being.

As such, I do not agree with the statement that the Bible says I am to go out and try and convert people. No where does the Bible actually say that.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[2PhiloVoid]

First off, I have to apologize for throwing this item in "the kitchen sink". It ought to be in "Outreach", specifically in Debating Other Faiths, but for some reason people of other faiths have "insufficient privileges" to post there. That doesn't make sense... is debate about other religions supposed to only take place between Christians? How do you expect to get a legitimate perspective and argument from the non-Christian side?

Anyways, I'm an atheist. I've posted to atheist forums before, but that strikes me as rather pointless. A forum dominated with atheists is a place to preach to the choir and that's all. I genuinely think my point-of-view, that there is insufficient evidence for the existence of a god (yours or anyone else's), is the correct one and because of that I feel pretty confident debating that point with people who don't agree with me.

So why are Christians here? Shouldn't you be dominating the threads of other forums, trying to evangelize? Your bible commands you to do so, and most of you (I imagine) feel as confident in your beliefs, so why aren't you testing them on people who disagree with you rather than people who won't try to poke holes in your arguments?

It seems silly that most avenues for speaking to atheists even on this very site have been closed down, and if you've checked out other Christian forums, you'll find that they're even less inviting to outside points-of-view. Didn't Jesus explain that he sat with "sinners" because they were the very people that he had been sent to speak with? (Matthew 9:10-13) So why are there so few of you on atheist forums, not a single one of which excludes believers?

Hello SupernovaK,

Personally, I enjoy coming to ChristianForums because I like the set-up of this forum. I also like the fact that one can find all kinds of people here, and that it focuses on what is most important to me, Christian faith. So, I feel little need to expand out to other forums, seeking attention from those who aren't Christian. Besides, I don't have that kind of extra time on my hands being that I work and have a family. Additionally, from my experience, those who are atheists are for the most part ex-christians and not those who simply grew up without religion, and they already essentially know the Gospel. Why repeat something to them that they don't want to hear any longer? Moreover, my own ideas of epistemology make me lean toward not worrying too much about those atheists who are actually ex-christians. And a couple of years ago, I found out just how sardonic the environment can be on such a site when I joined that site and attempted to discuss things.

Anyway, as with everyone, I'm glad to see you here. And if you feel confident that you can "dis" the Christian faith, then you can mosey on over to the Christian Apologetics in the 'Outreach' section once you've earned your minimum requirements here at CF.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Then what environment is? Do you only evangelize to those who specifically seek you out to be converted?

I have "drunk of the water that [Jesus] gives to drink", that is, I've read the bible cover-to-cover 5 or 6 times. I used to be a Christian in my youth. But around the age of 20, I started to notice how the bible's claims didn't reflect reality and I became an atheist, claims such as "anyone who drinks of the water that I give them to drink will never thirst again".

You sound just like another atheist individual here. Maybe you should compare notes with him. I'm sure you'll both have a lot in common.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Even those of you with a "legitimate persepctive... from the non-Christian side" would still benefit from those without a Christian bias, agreed? I often see Christian arguments in which one person cites a bible claim and their opponent rebuts with a bible claim, and both are still convinced that they're both right even though they're on opposite sides of an argument. For example, I often see this when Christians are arguing about whether John the Baptist was Elijah -- "yes" quotes Luke 1:17, "no" quotes John 1:21 (Was John the Baptist Elijah?) -- and the atheist notices the biblical contradiction that neither party will notice or agree to. They will forever be deadlocked because of their Christian bias to believe that the bible contains no contradictions.

No contradictions or inconsistencies in the Bible? Who said all Christians believe that? (Although, as far as the Elijah problem is concerned, that issue probably does require the application of solid hermeneutical study pertaining to literary and typological contexts and not just logic alone, the latter being often found on the side of atheists, nor should it be subject to just a superficial reading of the various texts involved, as is also often found on the side of more Fundamentalist Christians.)

While we can't really discuss the nuances of the Elijah problem here, once you get over to the Apologetics section, you can bring that little turkey of an issue up for discussion.

 

[GeorgeJ]

I've been thrown out of 4 atheist sites. My opening post always presented a crucified Saviour redeeming mankind from their sins.

Completely WRONG approach. I've seen Christians take approaches similar to this time and time again.....practically begging to be banned. It's called trolling.

Then the questions begin pouring in, rude a vulgar as possible.

No one likes a bull in a china shop.

 

[Nithavela]

This thread reminds me of a picture:

 

[Par5]

For me, the Word is not only in my mouth, it lives in my heart. I know the Christian life is real, it has completely changed my life.

As far as interpretation, that's a cop out on your part. It's a diversion to escape the truth of Gods word. Whether I'm right or they are right, there is not a hill of beans difference in the translation. Especially in this well known piece of scripture.

Your mind is made up and you're wasting my time. Your life no doubt is a mess and you come here to slam God through those that trust Him.

When you care to discuss how to change your life and have peace with God and man, let me know, I will be happy to talk with you.

Seems to me that you are the one whose mind is made up. You only seem to want to talk to someone who will say what you want to hear, not someone who will disagree with you. Why do you say SupernovaK's life is a mess? You can't possibly truthfully say that, because other than what he/she has posted here, you know knowing about their life and it is rather arrogant of you to say they are wasting your time. Mind you such an attitude does not surprise me, I see it a lot on these forums from Christians.
Another thing that some Christians say on these forums is that because atheists do not know Christ they are servants of Satan, whether they realise it or not.
I just hope that if Christians believe atheists are servants of Satan that they don't think that by being here we are trying to pull you away from your god and into the arms of Satan. I say that because if you believe what the bible says, that could prove rather unfortunate for us atheists.
"Deuteronomy 13:6-10King James Version (KJV)
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."

I am not here to try and deconvert you or any other Christian. Honest!

 

[Charlie24]

Seems to me that you are the one whose mind is made up. You only seem to want to talk to someone who will say what you want to hear, not someone who will disagree with you. Why do you say SupernovaK's life is a mess? You can't possibly truthfully say that, because other than what he/she has posted here, you know knowing about their life and it is rather arrogant of you to say they are wasting your time. Mind you such an attitude does not surprise me, I see it a lot on these forums from Christians.
Another thing that some Christians say on these forums is that because atheists do not know Christ they are servants of Satan, whether they realise it or not.
I just hope that if Christians believe atheists are servants of Satan that they don't think that by being here we are trying to pull you away from your god and into the arms of Satan. I say that because if you believe what the bible says, that could prove rather unfortunate for us atheists.
"Deuteronomy 13:6-10King James Version (KJV)
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."

I am not here to try and deconvert you or any other Christian. Honest!

You are a self proclaimed atheist. I don't expect you to believe in God or believe His Word, or to understand it.

You're upset that I said to another self proclaimed atheist that his life is obviously "messed up." I'm saying that the life all atheists are "messed up." I say this according to the Word of God, which you don't believe or understand.

These are some of the reasons the life of the atheist is "messed up."

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. Psalms 14:1

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy. 2:25-26

If you are taken captive by Satan, you are his servant.

The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. Psalms 37:32

There is no peace, saith the Lord, unto the wicked. Isaiah 48:22

There is no peace to the atheist because he has rejected the Prince of Peace. There is a hatred for the thought of God and all who trust in Him. They go about to slay the testimony of the Christian because they can find no peace in their hearts, the Christian reminds them and is proof of peace which has eluded them.

Yes, the life of an atheist is "messed up." There is no peace, there is only a constant misery that they can't extinguish. They search for peace through the things of this world, drugs, alcohol, sex, money, but they find no lasting peace in these things. Therefore, they are in a rage within themselves, seeking to destroy.

But the Prince of Peace is saying, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Matthew 11:28-29

 

[Tinker Grey]

*snip*

So you dropped out of magician school because you failed mind-reading class?

 

[Charlie24]

So you dropped out of magician school because you failed mind-reading class?

Ah, this reminds me of the old days on the atheist sites.

You can't come up with a logical answer to the things said, so you sling slander and insult not understanding or even trying to understand the things of God.

Why are you even concerned with the things I say? Do you not remember- there is no God.

 

[Nithavela]

Ah, this reminds me of the old days on the atheist sites.

You can't come up with a logical answer to the things said, so you sling slander and insult not understanding or even trying to understand the things of God.

Why are you even concerned with the things I say? Do you not remember- there is no God.

What possible logical answer to the accusation of hate could be offered except "you're wrong"?

 

[Charlie24]

What possible logical answer to the accusation of hate could be offered except "you're wrong"?

It's not hate! It's the plea of a loving Creator who does not want to judge the sins of this world when He has provided a way escape.

Our sin must, I repeat must be paid for. Christ has taken your sin upon Himself, leaving you sinless before the throne of God, if only you will believe Him.

 

[Nithavela]

It's not hate!

Your post suggests otherwise:

There is no peace to the atheist because he has rejected the Prince of Peace. There is a hatred for the thought of God and all who trust in Him. They go about to slay the testimony of the Christian because they can find no peace in their hearts, the Christian reminds them and is proof of peace which has eluded them.

Yes, the life of an atheist is "messed up." There is no peace, there is only a constant misery that they can't extinguish. They search for peace through the things of this world, drugs, alcohol, sex, money, but they find no lasting peace in these things. Therefore, they are in a rage within themselves, seeking to destroy.

 

[Charlie24]

Your post suggests otherwise:

Say unto them: ‘As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?’ Ezek. 33:11

God is speaking of spiritual death here, eternal separation from God. The same love He offered Israel so long ago, he offers still today.

Why do you want perish for your sins when God gave His Son to cover your sins? There is no need to lose your soul and spend eternity in Hell.

The life you lead now, God can replace it with much, much more than you ever thought possible.

 

[Nithavela]

Say unto them: ‘As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?’ Ezek. 33:11

God is speaking of spiritual death here, eternal separation from God. The same love He offered Israel so long ago, he offers still today.

Why do you want perish for your sins when God gave His Son to cover your sins? There is no need to lose your soul and spend eternity in Hell.

The life you lead now, God can replace it with much, much more than you ever thought possible.

So, not going to engage my point?