Out of interest, why do you believe in God?

[TheReasoner]

I have noticed there are many intelligent posters here with a Christian symbol next to their name <staff edit>.

I'm just wondering if you could explain from your own point of view, why you believe God exists?

I'd prefer to hear positive arguments in favour of God, rather than stuff like "well, atheism can't be valid because..."

Also, I expect most of you will say there is a chance that you could be wrong, but for those that think there is no way you could be wrong, I automatically don't want to hear from you, again, no offence.

This is just sheer curiosity more than anything...

Hey! I always welcome a good discussion. I don't think we've talked before, but I wanted to reply to your post here.

First, a little about my personality: Before I form an opinion or a stance I tend to find out what the available facts (or presumed facts) say. I tend to base my opinions on good research, historical data or strong theories. However, despite that I think your question is one I always find a little hard to answer actually. I find it hard to answer because it touches so many fundamental parts of who and what I am. That said, I will give it a shot.

I choose to believe and worship Jesus Christ for a plethora of reasons. Boiling them down to two, and cutting out most of my experiences, we end up with:
Ethically, there's the ideology Jesus promoted. Forgive those who sin against you. Do good to them, even. Turn the other cheek. Love all, even those who hate you. Give to the poor. Etcetera. Jesus' 'moral codex', if you will, is central to why I chose to be a Christian. And also central to why I chose my political stance. I have rational factual reasons why I believe this moral stance to be the best. But I would have supported it even if I had not found much research backing what I believe, simply because I think doing good to others and loving others are among the most rewarding thing human beings can do. On an inter and intrapersonal level.
Intellectually I chose to believe in a creator because of the precision and beauty of the universe we live in. Oh no, I do not believe in a six day creation if you ask. There's no evidence supporting that, and unbelievably much supporting other alternatives. For the record I support the theory of the universe being about 13.7 billion years old. As observations show us, that would be a fair estimate.
I see it (everything in existence) as a marvelous work of ongoing multi-dimensional art. Mathematically, physically, etc. the universe is absolutely stunning. And the more I learn about theories concerning the universe I must say I am more convinced that a creator is behind it's creation. In fact, I feel that it would rob it of much beauty and majesty to say it's all but 5000 years old. It would seem so hollow then, to my eyes.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

what's the "point" of enjoyment?

What's the "point" of God, or of following God?

I can see where you're coming from, but I think that if anyone can accept that a Supreme Being is it's own point, and that it is just the ultimate end, it is just as possible to see how the universe, humanity or enjoyment can all be ends in themselves. In fact, the latter is more credible given that it does not posit superfluous entities.

 

[truthshift]

It's "people choose to believe in God because they are afraid of death" bit that is my issue with Levi.
My experience is that this is not the case. My experience may be biased by dealing with people who are dying.
I'd like some evidence rather than mere assertion to back up this claim.

Well put.

The issue certainly needs to be looked into more.

But, look at it this way.

Say, for example, that the promise of eternal life in heaven is taken out of Christianity. What else is left? A few moral rules that are common knowledge and a promise that wicked people will be punished.

What is so compelling that hundreds of generations have subscribed to this belief system? The chance for eternal life.

There is a comfort and satisfaction that arises from "knowing" you will live forever and have salvation from...what?... death and non-existence. If God were to not promise this, how many people do you think would spend their time on it?

The major religions of the world all offer some sort of promise along this line, with the exception of Buddhism, which is actually less of a religion in this sense, but rather, a moral doctrine.

Consider why the lesser intelligent species fear death and avoid it and pain at all cost. They do not necessarily grasp abstract thoughts of death like humans can now. Consider the time period in which religion arose; the same period where the first sciences and philosophies arose. The same time period where people began questioning existence, life, and death. The time period where they may have very well have been confronted with the question of death.

Consider the difficulty for a simple person, that understood less information in their whole lifetime than what we get in a Sunday paper, to function when suddenly coming to the realization that death is uncertain yet inevitable. A concept that less intelligent species on the planet have never had to face.

Can you see why religion would be such a satisfying, convincing, and final answer? An answer that gives absolution to death for the mind.

I think it's reasonable to make the assumption that religion is a mental tool devised to ease fears and pains of death and injustice in early societies.

To make the assumption that this is still the case is less reasonable but still considerable since nothing has changed in the religion, at least supposedly so.

However, it should be looked into and verified before claims are made on it.

 

[stan1980]

Well I for one don't think people choose to believe in anything.

Trying to put aside any deterministic world views you have, I think people do sometimes choose to believe to a certain extent. Thinking about myself, I'm probably far too cynical now to be able to believe in God, but lets say 2 years ago, when I hadn't really given it that much thought... if I'd made a decision to go to church, pray and stuff, would I have been able to convince myself that God exists? I reckon I probably could have done. Just depends if you want to believe, I think.

People convince themselves that they're psychic and all sorts of crazy stuff.

 

[cantata]

Trying to put aside any deterministic world views you have, I think people do sometimes choose to believe to a certain extent. Thinking about myself, I'm probably far too cynical now to be able to believe in God, but lets say 2 years ago, when I hadn't really given it that much thought... if I'd made a decision to go to church, pray and stuff, would I have been able to convince myself that God exists? I reckon I probably could have done. Just depends if you want to believe, I think.

People convince themselves that they're psychic and all sorts of crazy stuff.

I don't think the work of the subconscious can seriously be called "choice".

 

[stan1980]

Hey! I always welcome a good discussion. I don't think we've talked before, but I wanted to reply to your post here.

First, a little about my personality: Before I form an opinion or a stance I tend to find out what the available facts (or presumed facts) say. I tend to base my opinions on good research, historical data or strong theories. However, despite that I think your question is one I always find a little hard to answer actually. I find it hard to answer because it touches so many fundamental parts of who and what I am. That said, I will give it a shot.

I choose to believe and worship Jesus Christ for a plethora of reasons. Boiling them down to two, and cutting out most of my experiences, we end up with:
Ethically, there's the ideology Jesus promoted. Forgive those who sin against you. Do good to them, even. Turn the other cheek. Love all, even those who hate you. Give to the poor. Etcetera. Jesus' 'moral codex', if you will, is central to why I chose to be a Christian. And also central to why I chose my political stance. I have rational factual reasons why I believe this moral stance to be the best. But I would have supported it even if I had not found much research backing what I believe, simply because I think doing good to others and loving others are among the most rewarding thing human beings can do. On an inter and intrapersonal level.
Intellectually I chose to believe in a creator because of the precision and beauty of the universe we live in. Oh no, I do not believe in a six day creation if you ask. There's no evidence supporting that, and unbelievably much supporting other alternatives. For the record I support the theory of the universe being about 13.7 billion years old. As observations show us, that would be a fair estimate.
I see it (everything in existence) as a marvelous work of ongoing multi-dimensional art. Mathematically, physically, etc. the universe is absolutely stunning. And the more I learn about theories concerning the universe I must say I am more convinced that a creator is behind it's creation. In fact, I feel that it would rob it of much beauty and majesty to say it's all but 5000 years old. It would seem so hollow then, to my eyes.

Thanks, faith guardian. I suppose the only thing I can say to that, is I too support the ideology that Jesus promoted and find the universe stunning, so we're not that far apart, just that I haven't come to the conclusion that a God is behind it all....

 

[stan1980]

I don't think the work of the subconscious can seriously be called "choice".

Nothing is a choice then.

What I'm saying though, is people do sometimes choose to try and believe things.

 

[cantata]

Nothing is a choice then.

What I'm saying though, is people do sometimes choose to try and believe things.

Do you think it's a conscious choice?

 

[stan1980]

Do you think it's a conscious choice?

Well it all gets a bit hazy between what is a conscious choice and what isn't. I mean, if I decided to join a church to try and believe in God that would be a conscious choice, but I'm not sure if I could actually consciously choose to believe, I could only consciously try to believe. If I did finally end up truly believing is that a conscious choice or not?

 

[Garyzenuf]

what's the "point" of enjoyment?

Its God's little payoff for being nice to one another.

 

[TheReasoner]

Thanks, faith guardian. I suppose the only thing I can say to that, is I too support the ideology that Jesus promoted and find the universe stunning, so we're not that far apart, just that I haven't come to the conclusion that a God is behind it all....

Well, I couldn't do more than scratch the surface in such a short post. But there it is anyway. I am glad you find the universe stunning as well. I wish more people would realize it's beauty. Then again, I am often considered something of a "geek"/"nerd". And to be honest, I actually like that label most of the time.

 

[truthshift]

Well it all gets a bit hazy between what is a conscious choice and what isn't. I mean, if I decided to join a church to try and believe in God that would be a conscious choice, but I'm not sure if I could actually consciously choose to believe, I could only consciously try to believe. If I did finally end up truly believing is that a conscious choice or not?

Ahh, that's a good one. It's hard to say what is conscious or unconscious in this regard. If you were consciously trying your hardest to believe in a god and you ended up believing in the god, it could be argued that you coerced yourself into believing. That would be non-consensual belief in a way, which may mean it wasn't even a choice.

Considering the context though, if you were truly trying your hardest to believe something. In other words: you were really, really, really, determined to believe in it, then chances are that you already believe in it and it is an unconscious decision.

 

[jcook922]

Well, I couldn't do more than scratch the surface in such a short post. But there it is anyway. I am glad you find the universe stunning as well. I wish more people would realize it's beauty. Then again, I am often considered something of a "geek"/"nerd". And to be honest, I actually like that label most of the time.

I too, like to sit back and think about the nature of our world. I don't even usually decide to scratch the god surface of things when I think about it, I just like to focus on understanding and appreciating that this whole clunky system we have called life works. Good for thousands upon thousands of years without an upgrade!

 

[stan1980]

Considering the context though, if you were truly trying your hardest to believe something. In other words: you were really, really, really, determined to believe in it, then chances are that you already believe in it and it is an unconscious decision.

Possibly, but not always. Some people like to take an interest in their partner's interests. If your partner was a Christian and attended church every week and it was a big part of their life, you might decide to try it out for yourself. You'd probably have to be open to the idea of God, but not necessarily believe yet, to be able to coerce yourself into believing. If you at some point down the line believe, was it a conscious effort?

You often hear people saying to others "you believe what you want to believe", some people will go to great lengths to ignore the bad in say their children, so that they can believe the sun shines out of their kids backsides. Are they consciously ignoring the bad in them, or can you not control what you want to and what you don't want to believe?

I'd say most the time it isn't a conscious choice; what you believe. But there might be exceptions, and I'm not sure if is as simple as putting it into neat little boxes such as conscious and subconscious.

 

[truthshift]

Possibly, but not always. Some people like to take an interest in their partner's interests. If your partner was a Christian and attended church every week and it was a big part of their life, you might decide to try it out for yourself. You'd probably have to be open to the idea of God, but not necessarily believe yet, to be able to coerce yourself into believing. If you at some point down the line believe, was it a conscious effort?

You often hear people saying to others "you believe what you want to believe", some people will go to great lengths to ignore the bad in say their children, so that they can believe the sun shines out of their kids backsides. Are they consciously ignoring the bad in them, or can you not control what you want to and what you don't want to believe?

I'd say most the time it isn't a conscious choice; what you believe. But there might be exceptions, and I'm not sure if is as simple as putting it into neat little boxes such as conscious and subconscious.

It's all very hard to say. The human mind works in many mysterious ways that, to study, often require a medical problem that acts as an excuse to poke around the human brain(not always physically). Unfortunately, that is where we get most of our knowledge of the mind from.

As far as something like the example with the kids goes: The parents are apparently oblivious to the bad behavior or consciously ignoring it, because unconsciously, they do not want to accept it or perhaps take responsibility for it.

That said, I believe it could potentially be the case that all decisions are made on an unconscious and conscious level. It may just vary in ratio.

 

[stan1980]

It's all very hard to say. The human mind works in many mysterious ways that, to study, often require a medical problem that acts as an excuse to poke around the human brain(not always physically). Unfortunately, that is where we get most of our knowledge of the mind from.

As far as something like the example with the kids goes: The parents are apparently oblivious to the bad behavior or consciously ignoring it, because unconsciously, they do not want to accept it or perhaps take responsibility for it.

That said, I believe it could potentially be the case that all decisions are made on an unconscious and conscious level. It may just vary in ratio.

Sounds more than plausible.

 

[Funny Fundie]

I grow up in a very secular home and in my surroundings, I didn't know anyone that believed in God.

I remember when I was around 10, I felt drawn to God. I can't explain it but I was filled with this sense of an existing God. I began to pray and these were the first steps on my path to fully accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour?!

Which goes to prove that turning to Christ has nothing to do with an upbringing.

 

[truthshift]

Which goes to prove that turning to Christ has nothing to do with an upbringing.

Uh, no That doesn't prove anything at all. An individual case for a single person's comments based entirely on their knowledge alone is going to be your "proof" for something like this?

This is why, later down the road, when you bring this up as support for another of your cases, it won't be considered in the slightest as any form of rational reasoning.

Your argument is that every child who has decided to turn to christ, has done so, free of influences. According to that logic, there should be no age of consent because, it's quite clear that children can make intelligent decisions on their own.

 

[TheReasoner]

Which goes to prove that turning to Christ does not necessarily have to do with an upbringing.

Fixed it....