Out of interest, why do you believe in God?

[Chesterton]

I think I might sort of see what you are getting at: That is it more comforting to believe that death is the end rather than believe in Hell.

I was just answering Levi’s comment which implied that Christians are Christians because the idea of eternal life is comforting; that it’s wishful thinking. The truth is I never much wished for it. I’ve read Christian apologists I admire who use the desire to survive death as evidence of survival being true. Maybe I’m in a weird minority; I just don't believe I ever felt it very strongly. It wasn’t something I looked to Christianity for.

If Christians are right, they will have to explain to God why, rather than be fishers of men, they jeered and mocked others, even seeming to find secret glee, in souls being lost that Christ gave his very life for.

That seems a much more terrible nightmare, and one which makes me question if some Christians are truly save, if the rejoice in the lost burning in hell. It is not the Father above that they are serving, but the one below.

Now, think about that as you fall asleep.

Are these general comments, or are they directed at me? I didn’t jeer or mock anyone.

 

[Andreusz]

most intelligent people in our history (Newton, Pascal, Darwin and even Einstein, albeit somewhat limited in the latter) also have and had very high-grade intellects.

That is so true.

 

[levi501]

Quite possibly so Levi. But I do understand this much : there is no one, homogenous human condition. There are human conditions that vary depending on the human in question, their habits and their temperament.

True, but there's a basic instinctual desire for surivival that generally speaking most humans share. Christianity comforts this desire while atheism a lot of times doesn't.

Working as a doctor, I'm in somewhat of a privileged position in that many people (some of whom are dying and know they are) will speak to me about their hopes and fears. I've learned a little bit from this, enough to come to the conclusion that you are wrong re your suspicions for the motivation behind many people's theism.

YNWA
Mike.

I fail to see how your position gives you a greater insight into reasons people have for various religious beliefs. Appeal to authority rejected.

 

[Adam007]

The most reasonable arguement for the existense of a god(not the Christian god) is the creation of the universe. That's all I see fit really.

 

[fated]

I have noticed there are many intelligent posters here with a Christian symbol next to their name <staff edit>
I'm just wondering if you could explain from your own point of view, why you believe God exists?

I'd prefer to hear positive arguments in favour of God, rather than stuff like "well, atheism can't be valid because..."

Also, I expect most of you will say there is a chance that you could be wrong, but for those that think there is no way you could be wrong, I automatically don't want to hear from you, again, no offence.

This is just sheer curiosity more than anything...

I certainly don't have the faith to conclude that God does not exist... especially because of the whole Big Bang scenario...

Further, faith is a gift from God.

 

[Beanieboy]

I'd agree with beanieboy for the most part.

To my discredit, there have been long periods of my life were I have tried to believe there was no God.
Actually trying to believe something that I didn't think was true was a very miserable exercise.
I did it because I could see the incredible comfort in the atheistic world view.
I most earnestly did not want to submit my will to another Being. Unfortunately I could not get away from the fact that said Being exists and that I was trying to deceive myself.

What I said in my previous post on this thread has nothing to do with morality per se; rather, in the words of Quintus Maximus (or Russell Crowe) "What I do today echoes in eternity."
That's a frightening thought, but one I'll have to live with because trying to believe something I find unbelievable is cowardly and actually very difficult.

YNWA
Mike.

By the same token, many people believe that there is a God, a Heaven, and afterlife, because of the fear of death, of going into oblivion, and believing that you will somehow live forever, will see your dead parents or friends or grandma again, and they will never leave, can also seem conforting.

I find it a little odd that in Christianity in particular, people are so often to want to deny death, to not think about physical death, about be afraid to discuss it, to think it morbid to dwell on. For that reason, people often fear it. In Buddhism, one is to meditate, on occassion, on their death. When you do this, you expect it, see that you have a time limit of being here on Earth, so that in that knowing, that awareness, you use your time wisely, and do not look back on regret, what you should have done, because it does not sneak up upon you.

I wonder if atheists actually believe in God, and just call it something else. For example, a friend of mine said that at 12, he announced to his family that he wasn't going to church anymore, because he simply did not believe it. However, he has said things like, "People are drawn to each other, and when we are together, something happens. We are more than the sum of our individual parts. So, when two or three are gathered, it's like there is a third thing - a bond, love, communication, that cannot happen alone." Astounded, I would run to get my bible and say, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there also." It was similar to what he was saying. He would say that one should not do good on this Earth to get a reward later, but that doing the good was its own reward, and made the world a little warmer. Again, insightful, and giving without expecting to receive. He also said that he believed in a God of sorts, that God was the totality of the human conscience, all of us together in unison. For that reason, were we to act like one body, helping each other out of love, we would be a healthy world, an amazing place to live.

I can't believe that such a person doesn't know God, for he knows love, and he who loves is born of God, and knows God.

A Hindu woman, explaining the difference between the US and Nepal, said that they go to work, come home, eat, and go talk to their neighbors. In the US, people go to work, come home, lock their door, eat, and commune with their TV. Their personal privacy is important about other things. I can't understand not sharing yourself. It's so selfish."

I never even thought of the idea of sharing my self, my person, with others, and hiding in my apartment was simply being selfish. She also said that in Hinduism, all strangers and friends are to be treated like gods, and you should serve them, give them what they need, or leave them alone if they n need quiet. I can't believe that she, who is acting like Christ in the way that he came to serve man, so that man would understand how he must humble himself to be exalted by God, does not know God.

I have met Christians who are very mean spirited. They are snarky, full of bitter anger, vile language, have grotesque revenge fantasies, and relish God's Wrath over his love, mercy, kindness and goodness. And for these people, their fruit shows exactly who they serve.

So, I think that regardless of the religion, even it is is atheism, one can see if they know or believe in the God that I do if the show fruit of the Spirit, if they act as Christ acted, humbling himself even before man, to serve, to teach, to comfort, to defend, and to bring hope.

 

[Beanieboy]

For me personally as I've said there's nothing logical behind having belief, which is why I say it's not particularly comforting. It would be much nicer to have God appear like Alanis Morrissette, scream like a banshee and prove his existence. Then we could do away with all the speculation, and say.. look I know God exists, I saw her just the other day in a sparkly little silver number having a fit by the Catholic church on the other side of town.

This makes a lot of sense. You have a bible where Moses is parting the water, there is a talking, walking serpent, a talking donkey, Jesus walking on water...

And then? Why aren't there enough cool miracles that aren't seeing Jesus in a tortilla, or a Maria shaped potato? It seems like we are grasping at straws.
There is Speaking in Tongues, and one it happens, and it always there, you simply can't explain it. I don't do it only when I am in an emotional tizzy. I can do it anywhere, any time. It is like a faucet. I can only not control or form what comes out.

That said, from the observers POV, there is no way to prove that I'm not just making it up. That is why trying to prove it is rather pointless. I suppose one can try to be prayed over for it for themselves, but once you allow your tongue to be controlled by God, it is like allowing God the small rudder of a boat that steers it. You are giving him control.

I have also seen a friend's ear that was partially deaf be healed, and a friend saw another friend's leg heal - grow an inch or so, because it was shorter, and gave her back pain. After receiving tongues, such things seemed matter a fact, rather than a wonder. It was just a given.

However, then there are a lot of the weird other extremes - the "barking" for God, the "Slain in the Spirit", the crazy running around pandemonium that I really question if it is of God, or for God, or simply what people what - an exciting show, something overtaking them, trying hard to prove God's existence.

I also have heard people "prophesizing," which means that God was speaking directly through the person. I've never had that happen, so it's harder to understand. The person speaks, and I remember one girl beginning to weep as she said, "And I gave my only son for you!"

Again, I don't know. Is it possible for God to do such things? Nothing is impossible, I think. However, one must also be careful about discerning things. One should not treat the communion and worship time of God as a show, as a spectator sport where you are to be entertained, to be proven of God's greatness, to demand a miracle or two.

A guy with Delusions of Grandeur used to ask me about signs from God, how God speaks. I asked, and he said, "I think God is always talking to me. For example, I see the clock, 1:33, 33 was my high school football number. I see a license plate number GJL 145, it means, God Jesus Love, my sister is 14, and my niece if 5. Is it real?"
I said, "How would I know that? How can I say how God communicates to another. For me, it is my thoughts, because they don't feel like my thoughts, but something greater, something more evolved, something that weighs on me when I do wrong, warns me when I am tempted, and is constantly reaffirming love when I am often so down on myself. We absorb far to much negativity each day, and it kind of cleanses my soul. However, sometimes I will have a specific problem. For example, I will have be emotionally hurt by a really cruel thing someone said. I will then mention it to my friend, who will say, "We are around ourselves 24/7, experience our thoughts, know our hearts, our dreams and hopes, our fears, and our weaknesses, yet we often feel like we barely really know ourselves, looking far to often at the exterior, the shell, which is not us. So, when someone puts you down, how much less do they know your soul and spirit? So if they try to judge you, to read you, they don't have enough to really base it on, and are usually wrong."

Is God sending you a message of God Jesus Love? Well, it''s not much of a message, but it returns your thoughts to God. Is God sending you a message when you see 1:33, and 33 is your jersey? I don't know. That is something you feel, and that is your relationship to God. However, when it is real or imagined, your thoughts return to God with each waking moment, with each letter and number, and if you are spending all day thinking about God, listening to God, surely, in some way, he is speaking.

If you can't make sense of it, then just let it go. If it simply makes you smile, then what harm is there? If it sounds like something that is not of God, pay it no mind. If it is a clear message, like, "Go buy beanieboy a Coke', then obey it. No, really, if it is a voice, a clear message, you have to weigh it, to discern it, and figure out if or why God would say such a thing.

I often feel happy for the guy, because so many people, while believing in God, have let him go. They may never think of God, especially away from nature, where God seems to pulse. They may think God is never felt, never answers, never speaks, except in verses, and complex sentence structure, usually Olde English. The often think that God is a part, not apart, of them, sometimes think of him as the President who can only see you in dire need, and that you appeal to the Saints the rest of the time. It's kind of the "God is dead" idea - that the whole idea of a noble God, a loving and forgiving and healing God, a love energy that makes anything possible, including healing the sick, then we have even more of a disadvantage than the MI guy. We instead hold up a silent, cold, sometimes angry, mysterious, intimidating God, and as long as he isn't made to real, people are comfortable to stay in almost an sleeping state, going to church, coming home, and never once questioning, never once seeing if the Spirit of God would grant them tongues or healing. We won't even pray for God to heal a headache, because we have aspirin. So, one leads a religious, but unspiritual, life, as if trying to please a master that looks down on them, one whose wrath we try to avoid, and hope we get something at the end of this, a spiritual paycheck. Such a view of God, in my opinion, is not only sad, but a blasphemy of the true nature of God, and of us.

 

[Beanieboy]

Quite possibly so Levi. But I do understand this much : there is no one, homogenous human condition. There are human conditions that vary depending on the human in question, their habits and their temperament.
Working as a doctor, I'm in somewhat of a privileged position in that many people (some of whom are dying and know they are) will speak to me about their hopes and fears. I've learned a little bit from this, enough to come to the conclusion that you are wrong re your suspicions for the motivation behind many people's theism.

YNWA
Mike.

As a doctor, have you ever had any metaphysical experiences with people dying? For example, a nurse told me that she was with a man who was waiting for his wife. He didn't want to die (like one has control of such things) until she arrived. He asked the nurse who the woman was in the corner, but there was no one. His wife arrived, they talked for about half an hour, saying their goodbyes, and he said, "You can tell her that I'm ready to go now," and he died.

I've also heard about 28 grams - how one becomes 28 grams when they die, as if the spirit actually has wait.

I have also heard about people dying and coming back.

I'm unsure what I think about all that, but have you ever experienced that?

 

[Beanieboy]

Are these general comments, or are they directed at me? I didn&#8217;t jeer or mock anyone.

If you do not gloat about how you are going to heaven and how others will die, if you do not condemn people to hell now, if you do not daydream about revenge fantasies of the unsaved begging for mercy only to be kicked into hell and be tortured day and night, then it is not directed at you.

It is directed at those who do such things, those who seem to want others to go to hell to make themselves feel taller, those whose lack of love produces fruit of delighting in their destruction, their eternal separation of the saved in heaven forever.

Of those people, if they are right, God is going to be annnnnngry.
If they are wrong, they are going to be annnnnngry, saying, "Hey, what's up with all the homos being here?" It's own kind of hell.

If something rings true, reflect upon it.
If not, then let it slide off, and understand to who it is directed.

 

[Beanieboy]

I also think that there is a fear of not being the center of the Universe, the one thing God loves more than anything. There is a fear that maybe our lives mean nothing, that there is no point. However, I imagine that if I simply go into oblivion, that it won't much matter and more than when I nod off to sleep. If there is no God, some people fear that they wouldn't know how to live, who to look to for guidance. However, I think if one is simply loving their neighbor, everything falls into place. It is that simple.

A Jewish friend of mine argued, "There has to be a God! (I have no idea why she even blurted it out, unless there was a seed of doubt.) Without God, there would be anarchy, no order! People would do whatever they wanted!"

I said, "Really? If there was no God, and I said, "Eeeehaw, I'm going to go steal a flat screen TV from Best Buy," I will still go to jail without God. I am taking what is not mine. Think about it for a minute. There is no God. You are free to do anything, and I mean anything, that you want and can get away with. You can sleep with a different guy every night. You can snort coke. One of the things you do do that is against your religion (I think) is having premarital sex, and you like to tie one on once in a while. Other than that, what else would you do? What is the idea of God holding you back from doing?"

She thought a long while, and said, "You know, nothing. I would do nothing different. Although there would be no punishment later, I wouldn't do anything differently."

I said, "Right. Now, we return you to your regularly scheduled Happy Hour. There is a God again. How do you feel?"

She said, "Liberated. I feel free."

Yeah, I said. You aren't obeying God because you are avoiding harsh punishment, but because it is in your nature, because you don't want to put harm in the world. That is your heart, and instead of burdened by 1000s of rules or sins, you are free to endless possibility."

 

[Beanieboy]

I certainly don't have the faith to conclude that God does not exist... especially because of the whole Big Bang scenario...

Further, faith is a gift from God.

While I agree, it makes me scratch my head. If one does not believe or especially if the doubt, is it the fault of God, for not granting one faith, since it is a gift of God?

I suppose that for me, for example, I cannot brag about my faith in God, because I seriously don't know how not to believe in God. It's like telling me that love is an illusion, that there is no such thing as love, and it is just chemical reactions and our body playing tricks. I know in every cell of my being that that is not true. However, I can't pat myself on the back for my faith, because its source is eternal, is of God.

It's kind of a Catch 22.

 

[truthshift]

And atheism isn't I suppose?
Come off it.

A universe of limited liabilities? A universe with a door clearly marked "exit"?
Answerable only to yourself and your peers?

This attitude that some atheists expound that they are more intellectually honest and courageous because they accept the universe as it "really is" whilst theists need a fairy tale crutch makes me reach for the vomit bowl.

And you call us judgemental and smug?

Yeah, you grow to accept what the universe is and become comfortable. The statement remains; however it should be revised to

Because it's comfortable( and not thinking about it will keep it that way)

 

[Funny Fundie]

Honest answer to the OP: it just makes sense to me. I mean, leaving aside the Christianity aspect of it, I can't help thinking that even if I ceased to be a Christian I'd continue to be a theist of some description, or possibly a deist, because all things considered it makes more sense to me that there is some sort of God/god/gods/goddess/goddesses (delete as applicable) than that there isn't. That's partly from a Paley's Watch point-of-view (without wishing to get embroiled in a creationism/evolution debate, the universe seems to me to bear the hallmarks of having been designed rather than being the result of random happenstance), and partly because taking into account all the people over the ages who claim to have had some sort of direct communication with God, I find it hard to believe that they were all lying/deluded/insane. Of course, there is the problem that not all of them were coming from the Christian tradition and therefore their testimonies don't necessarily agree with my theology on the exact details, but *meh* *handwaves* I'm sure it'll all make sense in the long run...

Hope that helps.

David.

I placed in bold the strong argument in favor of the existence of God and the fact that we have a personal relationship with Him. Most secularists/atheists will try to pick the argument apart and utterly fail with each attempt.

The existence of a Universe that seems designed points to a Creator God, and a contact with Him of a Spiritual type points to this Creator God having direct presence with us humans. The atheist's failing is in assuming that we as humans are too unimportant to be concerned with the seemingly incomprehensible and majestic workings of a Creator God, but may I ask to what or whom are we being measured in the futile endeavor of defining importance? The dunce remains eternally silent on the issue.

 

[Spherical Time]

I placed in bold the strong argument in favor of the existence of God and the fact that we have a personal relationship with Him. Most secularists/atheists will try to pick the argument apart and utterly fail with each attempt.

We don't "fail" so much as "not provide arguments personally convincing to you."

For, example, I don't find the Appeal to Popularity or Appeal to Common Action convincing. You obviously do, since you just cited a combination of them.

By the same token, you "fail" to convert atheists here to Christianity.

 

[chingchang]

I believe in God because he gave me a vision...which is exactly the type of proof I needed (being an atheist at the time). I asked...and received. I have no doubt that God exists because he personally revealed himself to me. Really knowing God and his plan is the confusing part...but I seek...

Hugs,
chingchang

I have noticed there are many intelligent posters here with a Christian symbol next to their name (no offence PCF, CIC, FF but I don't mean you).

I'm just wondering if you could explain from your own point of view, why you believe God exists?

I'd prefer to hear positive arguments in favour of God, rather than stuff like "well, atheism can't be valid because..."

Also, I expect most of you will say there is a chance that you could be wrong, but for those that think there is no way you could be wrong, I automatically don't want to hear from you, again, no offence.

This is just sheer curiosity more than anything...

 

[Garyzenuf]

I believe in God because he gave me a vision...which is exactly the type of proof I needed (being an atheist at the time). I asked...and received. I have no doubt that God exists because he personally revealed himself to me. Really knowing God and his plan is the confusing part...but I seek...

Hugs,
chingchang

Hi chingchang, was your vision Christian specific, or was it sort of a generic God experience?

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

I fail to see how your position gives you a greater insight into reasons people have for various religious beliefs. Appeal to authority rejected.

It gives me an insight only into the specific individuals' reasons for their attitude towards death and what part their religious belief plays in this.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

True, but there's a basic instinctual desire for surivival that generally speaking most humans share. Christianity comforts this desire while atheism a lot of times doesn't.

On what evidence, experience or authority are you basing this statement Levi?

If you ever get the chance to speak to two groups of people you may have to re-think this.
Group#1. People who are suicidal.
Group#2. People who are dying.

YNWA
Mike.

 

[Linus]

I grow up in a very secular home and in my surroundings, I didn't know anyone that believed in God.

I remember when I was around 10, I felt drawn to God. I can't explain it but I was filled with this sense of an existing God. I began to pray and these were the first steps on my path to fully accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour?!

 

[chingchang]

Christian-specific.

Hi chingchang, was your vision Christian specific, or was it sort of a generic God experience?